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« "Why Catholics Are Right" by Michael Coren is now... | Main | Mary Magdalene: Saint, Sinner, or Goddess? »

Friday, July 22, 2011

Comments

Charles E Flynn

Do any of you recall in which book Peter Kreeft mentioned these stages of belief?:

1. superstition

2. fundamentalism

3. Catholicism

4. infidelity to Catholicism

5. unbelief

Joe

"I would describe it as a worldview that gives lip service to major elements of the Christian faith but will not—or perhaps cannot—consider the awesome implications of those truths."

OK, except 'lipservice'? Doesn't this imply rhetorically imply lack of conviction versus lack of consistency. Also, while not the scope of this essay, I know, I think it helpful to add that while F is a stepchild of the Enlightenment in its approach to Scripture, so much of what we Catholics now encounter in parishes is not a stepchild of but an esteemed son of that same problematic era. So there are twin prodigals. Minor complaint. Good essay.

Gregory Williams

Thank you for this most excellent essay, Carl!

When discussing implications of the Incarnation with Protestants, I've found it easier to start with how it relates to interpreting Scripture. That is, viewing Scripture through a human lens as well as respecting it's divine nature. This is one subject where the Protestants I've talked with don't have a preconceived anti-Catholic stance.

Daniel Fink

The challenge may be to propose the principle as being scriptural, in the absence (for the fundamentalist) of any formally stated verse(s) permitting "visual theology". That is, the Incarnation confirms the fact that God transmits grace through the means by which he created us...the senses (Jn 1:14).

Catriona Mac Kirnan

Quite excellent! Many articles of this kind suffer from a failure of the author to appreciate and understand the Protestant midset(s) being discussed, and so end up being caricatures, just as we rightly accuse them of doing to us. But from your understanding, you have laid out really useful tools with which to approach these topics with thoughtful Protestants.

Admittedly, it will not do much good for the somewhat less thoughtful, more strident anti-Catholic sites, such as the one that you found, and the one at BereanBeacon.org, but it is a very good start.

I am a Catholic convert who came in from a journey that included Fundamentalist, conservative Evangelical, conservative (Presbyterian Church in America) Calvinist Presbyterian, and conservative (Missouri Synod) Lutheran, so I have been exposed to all of this, and am always looking for more good writing on the subject.

LJ

Like Catriona Mac Kirnan, I am a convert, although my background was mostly Evangelical Baptist.

This article hits the nail right on the head Carl. It reminds me of the process of my conversion. I was in the Church already, but a number of issues were yet to sink into my heart. They were in my head.

I knew the answers apologetically speaking but it wasn't until I began meditating on the Incarnation, without intellectualizing, but just opening myself in prayer and meditation to hear God speaking, that so many of the issues that you point out had their resolution in my own heart. Before that I had them by faith in the authority of the Church, but the Holy Spirit was able to speak through the mystery of the Incarnation so that they not only made sense in my mind but made sense down in my soul. (Isn't there a gospel song "Way down in my soul?")

Indeed, speaking to my brother (still Evangelical) one time and discussing doctrinal issues he mentioned that I had a very "Incarnational" theology, and I realized that it had finally sunk in and I had become Catholic in my thinking. For him I suppose it was a criticism but for me it was cause for thankfulness.

Lee Duigon

Mr. Olson, you have done us Protestants an injustice by lumping together all "fundamentalists" and attributing to us all the same opinions on various theological matters.

To which, in deference to Christ, I turn the other cheek.

Carl E. Olson

Lee: Five points, if your delicate and pious disposition can handle them:

1). I give specific example throughout my article. I can understand your point if I was hazy or ambiguous. I was not.

2). I grew up in a Fundamentalist home; my father co-founded a Fundamentalist "Bible chapel"; I knew a wide variety of Fundamentalists (as opposed to "Evangelicals"). My descriptions are accurate.

3). I attended a Bible college with a faculty holding to a wide range of theological positions: Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Anglican, etc. My article is true to the positions held by the Fundamentalists.

4). I've read most of the works of Jack Chick, Tim LaHaye, James McCarthy, and those of similar beliefs. Again, my article is accurate to what those men teach and believe.

5). What I describe is very much in keeping with what is found in "The Fundamentals" (1910-1915), from which the term "fundamentalist" was eventually derived (fairly or unfairly).

Reg Kennedy

I'm a protestant - evangelical Anglican - with more than an academic interest in the Catholic church. I watch EWTN off satellite regularly and can appreciate many of the arguments made.
As far as images are concerned, and the place of Mary, I often hear that Catholics don't worship either an image or Mary. Rather, they honour, but not worship.

What troubles me is that the distinction is so fine that I need to work hard to separate them. Is it any wonder that so many poorly-educated people (I hope I'm not patronising anyone) do pray to images; do pray to Mary, not to ask for her intercession with Jesus but to actually answer their prayers directly.

Account Deleted

@Reg,
"Is it any wonder that so many poorly-educated people (I hope I'm not patronising anyone) do pray to images; do pray to Mary, not to ask for her intercession with Jesus but to actually answer their prayers directly."

If I may, let me split your remark. "...do pray to images."
We don't teach that. No one in their right mind does that, but I can't speak for the rest of 'em. I think what you describe is like praying to a cup and saucer, hoping for coffee or tea.

Now, to the other point, about praying to Mary asking her to answer our prayers directly. I want to be gentle about this -- I mean no offense -- but it seems that you do not have the fundamental (so to speak) understanding that Catholic teaching imparts about who God is and who Mary is and what the relationship is between them, and between them and us here on earth (the Church militant).

You know that the Church has many rituals, prayer being one of them. We've had a few years to work out some pretty good prayers, we think, and we use them a lot. Here's the underlying point I need to stress: All prayers are directed to God; He's the only one who answers prayers. But some are spoken directly, like the one Jesus gave us: "Our Father...." and some are less direct, but perhaps more satisfying to us in a human way, if no more or less effective an entreaty to God.

Every now and then, we might ask others to put in a good word for us, you might say, when we desire a particularly favorable response from a third party of whom we ask a favor. So it is with prayers to others in Heaven (the Church triumphant). Yet we do not believe that the one prayed to is the cause of our answer, not entirely.

But yes, we do pray to Mary asking her to answer our prayer. We pray the Memorare ("Mem-oh-rah'-ray) that's Latin for "Remember"), a most beautiful prayer, I think. In it we specifically say ...O Mother of The Word Incarnate, despise not my petition, but in thy mercy hear and answer me." See that? We're asking Mary to "...answer me." We are praying to Mary.

There is an answer to every supposed trouble with Catholicism, and there is an answer to this. I want to make two points. It has to do with causality, and it has to do with the basic understanding of Catholic teaching.

Lets take causality first. You might have this understanding already, although perhaps you don't see it in the Catholic faithful you observe. But it's there. Others can (and probably will) make this more complex, however I'll just say that there is a proximate cause for things and there is an ultimate cause for things, both of which can be known but perhaps not easily discerned. I urge you strongly to investigate this concept further.

Now, to the teaching: Catholics are taught that The Ultimate Cause (The Uncaused Cause) is God. God is the Cause for all that is, seen and unseen, as we pray. Therefore when we pray (to anyone, in front of anything) we KNOW we are praying to God, because He IS the Cause.

All prayers go to the top floor; we don't expect results directly from the doorman, nor from the elevator operator, nor even from building security. We talk to "The Man Upstairs."

We don't think it's improper at all (it's biblical) to ask for someone's intercession.

So when we pray to Mary for an answer, we KNOW we're praying for her intercession with her Son. She does seem to have some historical influence on her Son: "They have no wine." "Do whatever He tells you."

Frankly, I feel closer to my Lord and Savior when I talk to His mom sometimes. I guess it's a human thing.

So, what you observe us doing may not disclose to you the entirety of our actions.

Thanks for listening. I urge you to investigate the Universal Church's teaching further.

Please pray for the Church in China.

Ken

Cristina A. Montes

"What troubles me is that the distinction is so fine that I need to work hard to separate them. Is it any wonder that so many poorly-educated people (I hope I'm not patronising anyone) do pray to images; do pray to Mary, not to ask for her intercession with Jesus but to actually answer their prayers directly."

"Worship" implies a total surrender of one's being to the object of one's worship. It is more than just praying to someone or honoring someone; it involves sacrifice. Catholics pray to Mary and the saints, we venerate their images, but we don't offer the sacrifice of the mass TO them.

To pray simply means to ask something of someone. For example, a lawyer often "prays" for something of the court. It does not necessarily imply worship.

As for images...we do not pray to the image itself (e.g. the statue, the painting, etc.) but to the one the image represents. We respect images because to do so implies respect for the one whom the image represents or is associated with.

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