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Monday, February 07, 2011

Comments

Jerry

I've read Cutie's book. Aside from the hyperbole I don't think Shaw would disagree with much of what Cutie has to say about secrecy. His theology is lame but his assessment of the Church politics is spot on. His basic point is that Church leaders are perfectly willing to keep the secrets of actively gay priests as well as scores of priests with their housekeepers and church secretaries they insist on taking with them from parish to parish AS WELL AS abusers until the press and the lawyers enter the scene - but "come out" as a monogomous heterosexual? Dead to me.

You guys can't have it both ways. You can't go on and on about the lavendar mafia and whine about priests unavailable for pastoral ministry and then run to the other side of the room when someone like Cutie describes what is going on and does so accurately (except for the stupid hyperbole).

I really which you invest as much time investigating the rot in the Catholic hierarchy and lay bureaucracy as you do with this guy.

Address his experience as he describes it. That would be far more interesting.

MVH

Is Cutie still going on about his schtup-fest? Seriously, what a whiner. He's still alive isn't he? I mean, the people who leave the RC Church are free to leave. A Muslim apostate isn't so lucky

'Guess the qualifier, Espiscopal before the word "priest," must still irk.

Dan Deeny

Carl,
An interesting article. Yes, Fr. Cutie seems to put his foot in his mouth. But how have you been able to read his emails? You say "nasty emails." How do you know what they have said? We have only Fr. Cutie's word that some of these emails have contained "verbal threats." How can we know what the threats are?
And yes, "having sex with a woman you are not married to is a sin." I guess we are all sinners, though perhaps not "depraved" as the Calvinists believe.
I continue to hope and pray that Mr. and Mrs. Cutie have many children, actively support the pro-life movement, build a strong and loving family, and help others build strong and loving families.
I'm sure you do too.

LJ

A priest with a hidden girlfriend is obviously not the greatest "secret" in the Church.

It does really seem to bother him. He seems to be the one that still wants to have it both ways.

Achilles

Jerry, we are a church of sinners, Christ didn't come for the righteous. We can only judge the institution by those who live the Faith the most closely, and that would be the Saints, Church Fathers. The rest of us are terrible sinners. To take the terrible sinners and judge the Church is a very common stupidity today. We are in the vale of tears, woe to him who calls it what it is not. Father Amorth said that the anti-christ has entered even the Vatican and has been infiltrating the Church since its inception.
It is far more interesting to hear people speak the Truth in reality and in love, not cheesey sentimentalism, but in Caritas, true love that is a machete to the barney love bandied about by the modern church.

Mila

I for one (not that my opinion carries real weight) am not against a discussion about the discipline of clerical celibacy in the Latin church. But most people don't seem to realize what you so correctly state, i.e.,"after all, the Eastern Churches allow married men to be priests". Everyone, Alberto Cutie included, think that celibacy needs to be abolished so that priests can marry. But that has never been the tradition of the Church, East or West. Married men can be ordained, as they are in the East; but ORDAINED men cannot get married. Ever. Sadly, it's not just Huff-and-Puff Post readers who are nigh illiterate about religion. A good many Catholics are too. And that is indeed sad.

LJ

You are exactly right Mila, and to follow that through, Father Cutie then would still have been in violation of the disciplines of all Catholic rites and even the discipline of the Eastern Orthodox, none of which allow marriage after ordination, and if the Roman Rite were to change the discipline tomorrow it still would not have applied to Father Cutie, because for certain the Roman rite would never go beyond the discipline that was the norm from the very earliest days of the Church, before universal celibacy became the norm in the Roman Rite.

It has only ever been the Reformation ecclesial communions that have permitted marriage after ordination, so Father Cutie's options were never anything other than Protestantism. (or give up his girlfriend and return in fidelity to his first commitment)

Gregory Williams

I live in the Diocese of Palm Beach, one diocese north of the ArchDiocese of Miami. I can only vouch for hearing rumors about how bad things are down there in terms of the large numbers of active homosexuals in the priesthood there. I don't have any evidence to back up those rumors. Those rumors (nothing more) back up Ft. Cutie's assessment of the local heirarchy.

On a good note, one that I can say with confidence, the Archdiocese of Miami recently received a new bishop, Thomas Wenski, who seems up to the task of putting the house in order. If what I hear is true, and if Fr. Cutie's alleged testimony (I haven't read it myself) is true, then Bishop Wenski has his work cut out for him and could use our prayers.

Barbara

"A priest with a hidden girlfriend is obviously not the greatest "secret" in the Church."

Uh, not so hidden, I think. Locking lips on a public beach isn't exactly discreet, but whatever.

The Episcopal Church's defining characteristic in the modern era is that it is the receptacle for folks who want the liturgy but can't cut the sexual morality of Catholicism. It happens all the time: you mess up and rather than make the painful decision to humbly ask forgiveness, you become defensive, and in many cases then go on to encourage others to do what you did. I left the Episcopal church after a counseling session in which the minister told me divorce would solve my problems. It wasn't the only reason, but it was a deciding factor. I had other experiences with women who became antagonistic when I suggested we pray for women considering abortion (they made it clear that it was because they had abortions that they wouldn't tolerate interfering with another woman's "choice" even to the extent of simply praying in public for them.)

Fr. Cutie is tiresome and childish, but it speaks volumes about the corruption of the Episcopal Church that he's being used as a P.R. tool.

Brad

Except for married-before-ordained exceptions, priests will remain celibate. That is their form of chastity, to which we are all called. No need to spin our wheels on this. It's just the enemy sowing angst within the mystical body. Don't take the bait!

Perhaps Mr. Olson would be so kind as to remind us (google is failing me) of the statement from one of the last two Holy Fathers that reaffirmed Sacerdolatis Caelibatus?

Meantime, fellow Catholics: http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=186

Nelle

Do you have to be condescending and call it the Huff-and-Puff Post? Is there a reason why you cannot use its actual name?

Carl E. Olson

Because, Nelle, I find The Huffington Post to be almost unremittingly shallow, vapid, arrogant, loud, angry, devoid of substance, juvenile, ideological, and full of hot air. There is, in other words, much huffing and puffing, and very little thinking and substantiating. Condescension isn't always bad, especially not when aimed at things beneath one's dignity and intelligence.

Nelle

Sure,I understand, I don't find the Huffington Post to be a collection of great information either, but it's also hard to take people seriously when they resort to name calling. It makes me want to roll my eyes and dismiss the message instead of actually listening to it. Just giving my 2-cents if I'm allowed.

Carl E. Olson

But, Nelle, surely you recognize that calling it "The Huff-and-Puff Post" is incredibly mild compared to the constant flood of nasty, irrational craziness that can be found on The Huffington Post, often in the main posts and constantly in the comments? The fact is, I've read many HP pieces over the years, and I can honestly say that I've rarely read any that exhibit any sort of intelligence, wit, or insight. Quite the contrary. Frankly, I find its immense popularity to be immensely disturbing.

Tito Edwards

Carl,

I think you're being a bit too kind about The Huffington Post.

Enough of this nice guy stuff.

Nelle

Sure, I already said I agree with your assessment of Huff Post. I'm just saying as someone who started to read the article, when you took to name calling, I started taking the entire post less seriously. It's just something to think about. Do you want people to take you seriously or just join in the riotous name calling?

Sharon

If Cutie knew of active homosexua priests whilst he was in Miami why did he not report them by name either to the bishop or to the Congregation of the Clergy?

Achilles

Nellie, do you work for the huff n puff post? CNN? MSNBC?
In keeping things in their proper order there are different degrees of name calling, if this particular level of humorous hyperbole distracts you from the article you may have had too many sensitivity trainging programs. In light of the kind of rhetoric they spout, much stronger characterization might not be unwarrented.

Nelle

Achilles - I do not work for the media at all. However, what should I be reading and watching? FOX News? This blog? Totally fair and balanced. ;-) (And for the record, I rarely read Huff Post, and never watch MSNBC or CNN.)

Efren Sarmiento

Alberto Cutie?!
Wow what a hipocrite.
He once was a R.Catholic priest! He defended the faith until he was cought by the media with another woman???! He bashes the faith that he once served.

David K. Monroe

Clerical celibacy is not the real target of the spirit of this age, it's only one arena of battle. The real problem people have is with vows of any kind. The real enemy to the modern sensibility is that one may be held accountable for one's own words, for promises entered into with ones' own volition. A vow that would bind one even after one's heart changes is anathema to current sensibility.

Warren

Cutié fornicates with his lover, abandons his post and now bad mouths his former community. If he's trying to make himself look good, he sure has chosen the worst of ways so to do.

Dan Deeny

Some of the comments are fascinating. Perhaps this website is a way for troubled Catholics to blow off steam?
I hope Mr. and Mrs Cutie have a beautiful marriage and a beautiful family filled with many, many children. And I hope they pray for charity and forgiveness for all of us commentators on the Ignatius Insight website.

Achilles

Nellie, you should be reading the Bible, the Church Fathers, Doctors and the Saints. If you were to read Gregory Nanzianas and John Henry Cardinal Newman you might understand that we are called to the degree that we are competent at speaking the Truth to speak out against public ills. THe huff n puff is a public ill, to worry about what anyone calls it is like asking Mrs. Lincoln how she enjoyed the play.

Achilles

Dan, is there a Catholic who is not troubled? besides you? In confessions of a Sinner, John Lukacs said something about the most pestilent habit of the last few centuries has been that of "attributing motives" when we barley know why we ourselves do what we do. Is there really a connection between judging cutie's actions and being troubled Catholics? Did Christ not tell us in John 7:24 “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Dan you are very tolerant, perhaps of all but "troubled Catholics"
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Dan Deeny

Achilles,
Thank you for your kind response. And thank you for the Bible passages. Did you choose them yourself? I have discussed Catholicism and Christianity with a former Catholic who is now a Calvinist. It is tough going. This last time I happened to be reading JP II's The Dignity and Vocation of Women; I turned to her and said "This is a beautiful book!" Her response was "Have you read the Bible?"
Could you look at Philippians 3:20-21 and explain this passage? Does Paul think our bodies are vile? Was he a proto-Cathar?
Hope you can respond.

Elaine Poeppel

Jerry, how refreshing, someone actually read Cutie's
book besides me. Most Catholic forums love to judge the man, just remember he grew up Catholic and secrets are a prerequisist for becoming a priest. So, he kept his sweetie a secret! They say he is using excuses for what he did? Guess where he learned that?
Most Catholic's just don't get it.......read my lips, child abuse is wrong! I'ts been going on in the Catholic church for generations. Wake up my friends, what Fr. Cutie did is nothing compared to what our priest have been doing to our children. I am an ex- Catholic raised in the 50's with all the rules drummed in my head. And while I was doing that, priest were sexually active with any person of their choice! You say it's only a few? We haven't even touched the first layer!

Carl E. Olson

Elaine: Are you saying that Cutie's actions were caused by the Catholic Church? That he doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions, unlike, say, a priest who molests a child? I'll readily grant that sexual abuse is a more henious and despicable act than sexual sin between a consenting man and woman. Fair enough. But I didn't realize that Sin B was no longer a sin because Sin A is more grave and horrible.

What I find so appalling about Cutie's actions is that he continually foists the blame for his actions onto others: the bishop, other priests, the Church at large, the Church's teachings. Frankly, if he had said, "Hey, what I did was wrong, but I'm going to live my life, so please leave me alone", I would have happily remained silent. But let's be honest: the man is making a living to a large degree off of his status as a former Catholic priest who is now thumbing his nose at the Church. That's his right, just as it's my right to fairly criticize his public actions and comments.

Achilles

Dan, the body is not vile, it is of a lower, perhaps much lower order than the resurrection body. St. Paul, unlike most in the world today, had things in their proper order. Fr. Rutler said “holiness is freedom in its proper order.” It is dangerous to make your own interpretations of the Bible especially today with modern intellectual errors. In your case, I would guess that you have compassion, peace love and understanding so heavily weighted that it has affected your discernment, discretion, discrimination and prejudice (as evidence, my response to you was not so kind, in fact rather pointed). You are safe in assuming that St. Paul is expressing with accuracy Christ’s message to us.

Giani Natio

Her name is HUFFINGTON.

It's called the HUFFINGTON POST.

And your inability to respect even it's name in writing your article seems to suggest that you are unremittingly shallow, vapid, arrogant, loud, angry, devoid of substance, juvenile, ideological, and full of hot air.

Not to worry, it appears that there's almost nothing beneath your dignity and intelligence save bare earth.

David K. Monroe

Giani, get over yourself. With your fixation on such minutiae, I'm beginning to think that you're unremittingly shallow, vapid, arrogant, loud, angry, devoid of substance, juvenile, ideological, and full of hot air.

Dale Price

From the business reports, it should be called the "Crushing-AOL's-Stock-Prices Post."

My problem with Cutie is not his indictment of clerical corruption, but rather his lame theological reasoning for his conversion. After teaching Catholic orthodoxy (in a rather winning way, from all reports), he suddenly learns it's all wrong. Right after being caught with his girlfriend, no less. Rather like Henry VIII's evolving understanding of the sacrament of marriage, actually.

And Dan, while I wish him peace and many children, the odds of him being a vocal pro-lifer in TEC is vanishingly small. He'll lose his television gig if he tries. TEC is a big time sponsor of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice and the home of seminary rector Katherine "Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done" Ragsdale. The presiding bishop has also stated that smaller families are a sign of TEC's environmental stewardship, so he probably won't have more than two kids without a tractor-trailer load of complaints.

Dan Deeny

Achilles,
Thank you for your kind response. But you didn't say if you had chosen the Bible passages?
Carl,
In responding to Elaine you write that if Fr. Cutie had admitted wrongdoing you would have accepted him. But then what about Ruhoma and the child? The child grows up thinking he is the result of wrongdoing. Illegitimate so to speak? But our parish priest, a young man, wrote that that is a legal term and is not accepted in the Catholic Church. Please see Benedict XVI on this.
Many years ago I read that there is a Jansenist strain in the American Catholic Church. Perhaps that is evident in this discussion. Perhaps Fr. Cutie has, by his attempts to defend himself, gotten bogged down in Jansenism.

Achilles

• Dear Dan, the Bible is meant to be taken in its entirety. I don’t choose anything about it, I either accept or reject its teaching. There is an endless amount of minute details, interpretations and theological points you can argue for and from but it is no more than a self-congratulatory endeavor. You appear to be for more concerned with self-esteem and good feelings over Truth. Matthew 6:33
• “ 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
• I didn’t choose this either, St. Mathew said it in his Gospel. I can tell you he meant to tell us to orient ourselves to God, not to the matters of this world, especially self esteem which is little more than the deadly sin of pride. The American Catholic Church is in error where it is in error and right on where it is right on. No amount of psychologizing will change that. We troubled Catholics need only do the one thing necessary.

Benno Hofschulte

I would like to know, who are the catholic extremists?

Elaine Poeppel

Carl, I tried to send you a post, but they were not approved. It was nice and I did't even swear! It just explained some of my Catholic upbringing, and the catachism that was taught back then. It would of given you some reasoning behind my rants! Sorry, they would not except it for some reason, I guess this is not the blog for me. Thanks!

Dan Deeny

Achilles,
Thank you for your kind response. I'll leave you with St. John of the Cross: En la tarde de la vida, te examinaran en el amor.

Achilles

Dan, Me encanta San Juan de la Cruz! Yo te dejo con San Augustin "Fecerunt itaque civitates duas amores duo,terrenam scilicet amor sui usque ad contemptum Dei, caelestem
vero amor Dei usque ad contemptum sui." De Civitate Dei
Mire el "vero amor". Que tenga un buen fin de semana.

LJ

Elaine, it is possible it was a technical glitch, especially if you edit too many times. Copy and cut the whole comment, move out of this post, and then back in. Paste it back in the com-box and try it again. That sometimes works.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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