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Wednesday, March 24, 2010

Comments

Jim

I think you're overreacting here. If this is the most theologically ignorant paragraph written this week, we would be very lucky indeed.

I think the original author clearly knows what the Virgin Birth is. I think her error is in equating 'did not have sexual relations' with 'the anatomy and function of the human reproductive system are entirely bypassed'. Such a view, that our reproductive systems exist for the sex act, and not necessarily for actual reproduction is, I'm sure, fairly common on college campuses.

The irony is that the casual sexual encounters with which as a society are more familiar than the Virgin Birth, are in fact the episodes which are bypassing the 'function of the human reproductive system are entirely'.

Carl E. Olson

I think you're overreacting here.

Simply not possible, Jim, simply not possible. Me, overreact? What? ;-)

Carl E. Olson

I think the original author clearly knows what the Virgin Birth is.

I think she knows that Mary was a Virgin and gave birth, but that when it comes to really knowing and understanding what it is and what it means, she is clueless. Hard to come to any other conclusion based on her very confused piece.

Magister Christianus

One hardly knows where to begin. Seriously, have we all become children who have just discovered our noses and like to pick them all the time? Surely I am more than my big toe, my left ear lobe, and my small intestine! Of course, I am equally dismayed by the words on the page of Vagina Monologues. I do not say "by the writing" of the Vagina Monologue, for other than the fact that words are involved, this so-called play bears no resemblance to actual writing. Those who think this is enlightened literature are the same who pushed for "ebonics" to be taught in California schools some years ago.

The stunning part for me is that a Catholic student would even consider putting on such a play. Oh, I can hear the laughter now. How naive I must be! I am well aware of the state of the world, but I think I should not cease being stunned by such things. A Christian student really ought to know better.

Kevin

And to think there was a time when I thought it was bad that people were contemplating their navels...

joe

No, you are under-reacting. Her words are more than ignorant, they are transparently dishonest. Dissent is not dialog.

The first give away is "Some arguments ... focus on what some consider to be glorification of acts *they see* as immoral ... " Lesbianism. Abortion. free sex. Got it.

We don't see acts as immoral-- the are, objectively so. That is the whole basis of Catholic Truth. To then go on and suggest Marian theology encourages a screwed up sexuality is to turn Catholicism on its head with a thud, affronting its most venerated female icon.

This whole thing has been seen before. Go read Maisie Ward's "Insurrection and Resurrection." The insurrection would by the Modernism of the 1900s, from which we may still be awaiting resurrection, if these young ladies represent the respectful college students of today. Voices feign faithfulness before demonstrating a complete sea change. Any sympathy with a show like "Vagina" gives the lie to those who are so gone as to be anywhere near the vulgarity. Clueless? I doubt it. What is "alienation from our anatomy' really saying? And what is the reverse: free love, self-love, masturbation? I can't imagine she's be pushing for support or a ban on contraception. Really, what is said in conjunction with what is not said is damning claptrap. What was that dated punchline about being unable to find three wisemen or even a virgin...? It hits too close to home on college campuses to be funny any longer.

Dr John James

I think it reasonable to postulate that Mary would have been the most feminine of women, very beautiful,and very attractive, that Joseph, her husband, loved her dearly, and that he was a very strong young man, unlike some of the pious depictions of him as an old man, and finally that Mary, among her many virtues, was extraordinarily courageous.
When all the apostles, bar St John, had run away, she was at the foot of the Cross and with her Son throughout all the jeering, the spittle and the( as we say in Australia ) "cheap shots".
I guess what Ms Laney has to grasp is that virginity can be an expression of the most sublime of love, and that Mary is a woman in the best 'sense' of the word.

Dave

The biggest error is trying to reason with them...this is children who are laying on the floor, kicking, screaming, or holding their breath in a full-blown authority rejecting temper tantrum. From Mary Daly to Bishop Gumbleton, Joan Chittister to Ms. Laney, to the unnamed priest who's parish we left, who one day from the altar said that Jesus had once told Mary Magdalene that she would be a fisher of men. Perhaps from the Gospel of Dan Brown...the only difference between any of them is that some have the intellectual and spiritual integrity to actually leave.

With all the Anglicans who are moving toward Rome, perhaps someone...please someone, could arrange a monumental "player trade" and send so many of the "dissenters from within" lay, clerical, and consecrated, back to the Anglican/Episcopal tradition. They already are what so many want to become...and are working toward liberal fulfillment even as we write. Lord knows, the Episcopal could use the numbers!

Since the Anglican tradition started with the rejection of Rome's authority and Church teaching, the dissenters have already completed most if not all of whatever RCIA process exists...Fr. Cutie eagerly awaits all of you..go with God...please, soon.

Let's start with the dissenters from USCCB on Health Care bill.

LJ

With all the Anglicans who are moving toward Rome, perhaps someone...please someone, could arrange a monumental "player trade" and send so many of the "dissenters from within" lay, clerical, and consecrated, back to the Anglican/Episcopal tradition. They already are what so many want to become...and are working toward liberal fulfillment even as we write. Lord knows, the Episcopal could use the numbers!

Since the Anglican tradition started with the rejection of Rome's authority and Church teaching, the dissenters have already completed most if not all of whatever RCIA process exists...Fr. Cutie eagerly awaits all of you..go with God...please, soon.

Let's start with the dissenters from USCCB on Health Care bill. - Dave

Excellent proposal. There have been some who have said that the Motu Proprio was not a two way street. This would perhaps quell some of the complaints that Rome is robbing Canterbury.

Joseph Fromm

Pagan Play at Gonzaga University worse than Vagina Monologues

Lysistrata ... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata )isn't that the comedy with the men stuck in an endless war, so the women go on a sex strike, and the men can't fight anymore because (as becomes enormously evident when they reappear onstage) particular bodily appendages of theirs have become enflamed with desire? Yeah, some jokes — even when they're 2,400 years old — never grow old. The Civic's production in 2004 had the men flouncing around with polystyrene swimming pool "noodles" protruding upwards from their groins. (Wires provided added, um, stiffness.) And when you're attached to a stiff noodle, it's difficult to maintain even a modicum of dignity. (That Aristophanes, such a joker.) Fr. Kevin Connell, S.J.( http://www.gprep.com/s/766/index.aspx?sid=766&gid=1&pgid=286 ) — the Jesuit priest who is principal at Gonzaga Prep and who will be directing the Gonzaga University production of Lysistrata at the Magnuson Theater in College Hall, March 25-28 — has advised us that the G.U. male actors won't have any noodles, "though we've found an interesting and, I think, unique way" to represent the men's, er, predicament. Don't bring the kids, but do bring your sense of humor.


Link ( http://www.inlander.com/spokane/blog-402-lysistrata-at-gonzaga.html )


This is from the Gonzaga University website.
The women of ancient Greece refuse to make love until their warring husbands make peace, as Aristophanes whips up a bawdy whirlpool of war between the sexes and the folly of war in a farce that makes "South Park" look like Sunday school. Directed by Fr. Kevin Connell, S.J. Performance dates: March 25, 26, 27 at 7:30 pm and March 27, 28 at 2:00 pm Location: The Harry and Colleen Magnuson Theatre

Read the entire play in English ( http://books.google.com/books?id=oFEEAAAAQAAJ&dq=lysistrata&pg=RA1-PA63#v=onepage&q=lysistrata&f=false )

A.A.

Wow, such negativity. Plenty of ad hominems and biting insults directed towards a college student!

Firstly, I love how you failed to cite the entire paragraph:

"Some arguments against the Monologues focus on what some consider to be glorification of acts they see as immoral, often including frank discussions of heterosexual and homosexual sex. However, these arguments do not take into account the wide array of topics covered in the show. This argument is like saying The Bible is merely about the Creation story. Yes, some of the Monologues focus on sex, but there are many other topics discussed including: sexual violence, objectification, birth, intimacy, and the importance of language in gender equality. Acknowledgment of these topics is important, and indeed vital, in our creation of a Christ-like community of people who truly love each other as Jesus calls us to do."

You mock the play, but the issues it addresses make for fruitful discussion, and can turn the monologues into a dialogue. We're college students; we're old enough to handle the crassness and make decisions on our own whether or not to be offended. Besides, just because Gonzaga allows the production on campus doesn't mean it endorses it. In fact, by NOT banning everything it DOESN'T endorse, it endorses them. Lysistrata= ok. ROTC program that trains future killers = ok. Vaginas = NOT OK. Quite silly. This play is crude at times, but it raises awareness of important issues about women, such as violence towards women (which has been at an all time high on this campus this year) that are often neglected. The play is meant to be performed in order to raise money to donate to organizations that can help.

For many students, the main underlying issue of the ban is that it goes against the promise of intellectual freedom that Gonzaga's mission statement supposedly endorses. Female students see the ban as oppressive and silencing, which it is quite frankly. Works celebrating female empowerment have very little place in such a male-centered institution.

Also this - (Perhaps someone in the Religious Studies department at GU could meet with Ms. Laney and discuss those passages with her. Ha! Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Totally unnecessary, immature and condescending. You should know better.

P.S. Please SEE the play before condemning it. You can't make judgments based on the script alone. This production is almost always highly adapted by those who put it on. Just saying.

A.A.

@Magister Christianus

So Gonzaga should ban all crappy plays, is that the solution? Guess students shouldn't be given the freedom to make that decision on their own anymore.

Also: "The stunning part for me is that a Catholic student would even consider putting on such a play. Oh, I can hear the laughter now. How naive I must be! I am well aware of the state of the world, but I think I should not cease being stunned by such things. A Christian student really ought to know better."

Goodness, SURELY self-respecting Catholics mustn't care about the plights of women, rape victims, inequality, oppression or domestic violence! The second anyone sees the word "Vagina" or lesbian, all common sense goes out the window, and you subject the play to your narrow-minded beliefs. Tolerate opposing viewpoints? Have healthy discussion? No way! Censor! Ban!

Carl E. Olson

A.A.: You need to make up your mind: either being a college student entitles you to special protection from criticism (per your whining remark, "Plenty of ad hominems and biting insults directed towards a college student!"), or it blesses you with a profound and serious maturity ("We're college students; we're old enough to handle the crassness and make decisions on our own whether or not to be offended"). Which is it? Or do you wish to be protected from reality while pretending to have conquered reality?

You can't make judgments based on the script alone. Yes, I can judge the script from the script alone. Literary critics have been doing it for centuries; I'm not sure why a pathetic excuse for a play such as TVM gets special exemption (perhaps because it is so poorly written?) And, yes, I know the script has a certain, um, impromptu fluidity to it, making it a sort of participatory soft-porn, by all accounts. And this is a positive in what way, exactly?

Totally unnecessary, immature and condescending. You should know better. A nice use of cynical irony. I'll assume it was intentional...

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