Actress angry the Catholic Church intolerantly singled out her "gay" brother

Or something like that. Here's the curious headline, from USA Today: Anne Hathaway quits Catholicism for gay brother

The article states:

Anne Hathaway, who was among the stars hitting the red carpet in Hollywood last night for the premiere of Valentine's Day,  says in the new British GQ that her family left the Catholic Church over its intolerant views on homosexuality.

Those intolerant views, of course, were only added recently, after a number of close votes and—oh, wait, it appears the Catholic Church's teachings about homosexuality have been around for quite a long while. Even longer than Hathaway's brother has been alive! Shocking, but true.

Anne grew up wanting to become a nun but shunned Catholicism when she learned her older brother, Michael, was gay.

And I grew up wanting to be an insanely talented, eccentric jazz musician but eventually shunned the music industry when I learned my uncle was tone deaf and my dad didn't care for the mid-Sixties Miles Davis' quintet. Bummer.

"The whole family converted to Episcopalianism after my elder brother came out," she tells the magazine. "Why should I support an organization that has a limited view of my beloved brother?"

Yes, exactly—how could she? Of course, it's actually not an issue, since the Catholic Church doesn't have "a limited view" of her brother. Rather, the Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are "acts of grave depravity" and "are intrinsically disordered." The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not, as best I can tell, specifically mention Michael Hathaway, but does state:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (par. 2538)

The Hathaway situation becomes a bit more perplexing in light of this headline on the New York Daily News site:

Gay brother makes Anne Hathaway quit Catholic Church for Episcopalianism

Wow. So...who, exactly, is being intolerant: the Church with the 2,000-year-old teaching about homosexual acts being sinful and contrary to the natural law, or the homosexual brother who makes his sister (who once wanted to be a Catholic nun, for goodness sake!) become Episcopalian? Hmmmm...

Related IgnatiusInsight.com Articles, Excerpts, & Interviews:

• Authentic Freedom and the Homosexual Person | Dr. Mark Lowery
• Contraception and Homosexuality: The Sterile Link of Separation | Dr. Raymond Dennehy
• Homosexual Orientation Is Not a "Gift" | James Hitchcock
• Can I Quote You On That? Talking to the Media About Homosexuality and the Priesthood | Mark Brumley
• Human Sexuality and the Catholic Church | Donald P. Asci
• The Truth About Conscience | John F. Kippley
• Practicing Chastity in an Unchaste Age | Bishop Joseph F. Martino

Comments

[Julie]

I wish just for once these people would be honest and say they're too busy with their venal lifestyle and don't want to be bothered with morality. I think the gay brother is an excuse to gain points with her crowd as she is expressing the only bigotry that gains approval, that is, anti-Catholic bigotry. I thought she was sweet, I hate to see her go down this path. I suppose sweetness gets lost quickly in her world. I am always surprised, however, with how quick Catholics can turn on the church, daggers at the ready. It is like, to disengage, they MUST turn on it.

[Bryan]

Hmm... the article goes on to say that the Episcopal Church didn't work out for her either. She defines herself as "nothing," when it comes to religious affiliation. Who would have thought a more 'tolerant' religion wouldn't have worked out for her?

[Brian J. Schuettler]

If the legitimate teaching authority of Christ's Church is your problem, going Anglican/Episcopalian seems to be the answer...from Henry VIII to now. Anne Hathaway made a choice between her brother and Christ. She chose her brother. Let's pray she and her family see the error of their decision.

[Kevin J Jones]

A whole lot of Catholics actually don't know Catholic teaching about the disordered acts relevant to the "gay" lifestyle. The topic is too sensitive to talk about in church, after all. So when Catholics do learn it, it comes as a surprise if they've been "catechized" by Hollywood instead.

[CatholicPatric]

But it is sad and can be confusing to someone who is or knows a homosexual. If one doesn't fully understand what the Church really teaches, it could become easy for some to think that because the Church doesn't allow gay "marriages," it is somehow anti-gay. If someone doesn't know much about the purpose of marriage, sexuality, etc., then one could see the Church's view on homosexual marriage as an authentic stumbling block.

That is why it is important to emphasize the Church's true position, which basically is summed up by the phrase "Hate the sin, Love the sinner"

[David]

I think that this article doesn't really get at the core issue which enlivens the debate. It isn't that the Church is now teaching something that it hasn't for the past 2000 years. It isn't that the Church doesn't distinguish between loving the human being and hating the sin or disorder. The real debate involves the fact that people call into question whether homosexuality really is a disorder. Based on that position, people say that the Church is "backwards" and that it holds on to "old prejudices". I have no doubt that this is what the Hathaway family believes.

[Jae]

"The real debate involves the fact that people call into question whether homosexuality really is a disorder."

It is disorder because it runs against the NATURAL LAWS setup by God Himself...like artificial contraception...read Humanae Vitae for your info on the reasons WHY.

I trust God and His Church more than all the world say...."But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the PILLAR and GROUND of the Truth."

Is Truth subjective to a majority vote?

[David , Chicago]

This snarky, sarcastic commentary only strengthens the Hathaways' point. All Catholics should be sad and do penance when another Catholic leaves the church. Certainly an agent of a Catholic publishing house shouldn't belittle the Catholics who leave.

[christopher]

There's is so much controversy in todays society especially within the church on how to keep morality of christ' teaching without affending someone because of a loved one's life style. We all know the truth God has set before our hearts,and deep inside we all know the truth of our choices, if our choices are bringing us closer to God, or are we pick and choosing scripture and churches that accommodates the LIFE STYLE WE WANT.

[steven]

RE comments by David, Chicago: "Ditto". Lord have Mercy!

[Scott Jerome]

In our confused relativistic culture, the Catholic Church is intolerant because it teaches Truth.

Hathaway doesn't have time for the Truth. There is too much pleasure and pride to be enjoyed for that nonsense.

[Carl E. Olson]

David of Chicago: Your comment would make more sense if I had, in fact, "belittled" the Hathaways. I didn't. In addition, where exactly does the Church teach that we should "do penance when another Catholic leaves the Church"? Say what? I simply pointed out what should be obvious (but apparently isn't): Hathaway either doesn't understand Church teaching or she ignores it for her own ends. Her approach to the entire matter is tellingly self-centered and subjective. If her brother committed adultery or stole money would she then say that the Church's condemnations of adultery and theft are also "intolerant"? This is simply another sad example (and, yes, it is sad) of how many Christians are all too often willing to go with the cultural and social flow rather than seeking authentic truth, grounding themselves in the Gospel and Church teaching, and adhering to objective moral standards.

[Thomas]

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

[Dom]

Interesting that Anne Hathaway was the girlfriend of Rafaello Follieri, the Italian who'd set up a company in the US to buy up closed Catholic church properties, claiming high-level Vatican ties, and ended up going to prison for fraud. He was sent there in part by Hathaway's cooperation with law enforcement.

I'm not saying there's a connection, just that it's an interesting coincidence.

[Jean]

Good grief. I'm sure that people are daily SHOCKED that no one, regardless of sexual orientation, is embraced by the Catholic Church for having sex outside marriage. How very, very intolerant those Catholics are!

[Norah]

The real debate involves the fact that people call into question whether homosexuality really is a disorder.

Not just a disorder but an intrinsic disorder says the CCC. This means that the bodies of same sex people are not intrinsically constructed to have fruitful sexual intercourse – their plumbing doesn’t match. If homosexuality wasn’t a disorder then homosexual sex would not bring along with it all of the health consequences that Google or a visit to Narth will bring up.

[matt Bettag]

Carl,
You are at your most eloquent when you are dripping sarcasm. Is that a reflection on you or me. I love it. Keep up the good work.

[Michael]

Dear God,

Why doj't people like her just carry on, do what they have to do, and not make an issue e.g. her brother.

I do not condemn to be sure, but I can't imagine Ann off to Sunday Mass and regular confesson. If otherwise, she would not be doing what she is.

The Roman Catholic Church is a great batting post. Does anyone in the Episcopalian Church or Lutheran Church or whatever make headlines like this? Of course not.

Our Holy Catholic Church is a pillar, probably the only immovable organization in time, in history. For 2000 years the Catholic Church continues to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus, to adminster the seven sacraments, and set forth the Holy Mass for all to understand that Jesus Christ is present today.

Best of luck, Ann. Your publicity ratings may have gone up a notch......for a day or so.......most people really don't know who you are. You have made a staement to a dwindling minority of modernists and liberals in our Church. Like you, I wish they would all go to the Episcopal church. After Anglicanorum Coetibus, that church will become the newest protestant church in the world. As I have heard one great Anglican churchman say, "the Anglican experiment is over." Wow!

[Gods child]

if she read and understood the bible then she would know where the catholic religions teachings come from i mean really what happened to the gays in the past??? what did God do to them?? If she had read it then probably she would talk her bro out of being gay!! as much as we should not judge we all know God made woman for man not man for man

[Sarah]

It is terrible! Shall we have another generation sister Hathaway? Please bring back your family to the church of Christ and learn the truth and the love which God gave man an woman from the beginning.

[Patricia Kenyon]

"What is the good of an article such as this?" I wondered after reading the" article about the article". Surely it will not convince Anne Hathaway of her error, nor will it convince her of this Catholic publisher's good will toward her and her brother. Neither do I think it will convince anyone in similar circumstances to stay with the Church given the tone of the article.

Then I asked myself, "Why did click on the link to this piece?" I believe I wanted to know who it was that left the Church. Yes. The headline to the link did not give the name of the actress who had left the Church.

"Why should I want to know her name?" I thought. After a moment I realized it was because I wanted to pray for whomever this was who had left her Mother, the Church. A 65 year old woman, I would never run across this article in GQ. So I probably would not know of her decision if I had not linked to this "article about the article"

And so I answered my own first question: "What was the good of this article?" It allowed me to become an intercessor for Anne and her family. Thank you. (I will not question whether the article could have been written in a more sympathetic tone, or even that it might have overtly asked for prayers for Anne and her family.)

[Brian]

I seriously doubt that Christ intended the quote that Thomas brings up to advocate bitterness and fighting. I believe He was simply talking about "realpolitik". Prince of Peace?

Let's listen to David of Chicago. Let's listen to CatholicPatric.

[Brian J. Schuettler]

Brian:
To hate one’s father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters means to love Christ so much that all other human relationships pale in comparison. It is an issue of a properly ordered set of priorities, placing God as first above everything (and everyone) else – so that when situations arise where there needs to be a choice between doing what God wants and doing what my family wants, there is no question that I will obey and honor God. It might look like I am hating my family, but I would rather do that than appear like I am hating the God who has created me and has saved me.

[Carl E. Olson]

"What is the good of an article such as this?" I wondered after reading the" article about the article". Surely it will not convince Anne Hathaway of her error, nor will it convince her of this Catholic publisher's good will toward her and her brother. Neither do I think it will convince anyone in similar circumstances to stay with the Church given the tone of the article.

Ms. Hathaway is intent on telling the world that the Catholic Church is "intolerant" toward her brother. My post is merely an expression of my intolerance toward falsehood, playing the victim, celebrity whining, and Catholic bashing. No, the post will likely not convince Hathaway of her error, as she appears incapable, at the moment, of dealing with facts and reality, at least regarding this topic. Two of the seven spiritual works of mercy are to instruct the ignorant and admonish sinners; consider my post a modest effort toward those ends. As for "good will," I will point out the obvious: I did not mock Hathaway or her brother; I did not condemn them to hell; I did not slander. As for "tone," I suppose I could have followed the example of St. Paul, who called the Galatians "foolish" and "bewitched" by sin (Gal. 3:1) for rejecting Church teaching...

[joe]

Question: Does Ann Hathaway think premarital sex is wrong? Birth control? Divorce? Does she believe in any of the Church's teachings on sex? I'd be very surprised. It's not Gay Sex that people are at heart freaking over, it is the medieval claim that we are dealing with a genuinely revealed religion. This is true. This is false. This is right. This is wrong. Who says?! Well, Catholics believe the answer there is GOD. The Church is the mail carrier (Kreeft), not the editor. When the culture is following along it is not hard to say you believe. When it isn't, faith becomes standing in the face of what others think is good or reasonable. I can't imagine anyone in Hollywood who isn't robustly Catholic maintaining faith there.

[joe]

And having now checked out the links, here is Ms. H's last word:

"... what religion is Anne now? "I'm nothing," she admits. "F- it, I'm forming. I'm a work in progress."

I think Carl was actually fairly charitable, since he didn't betray the bohemian vulgarity now matching Hathaway's princess diary looks. She doesn't want anyone telling her how to live. That's not really quitting Catholicism. That is Losing Religion altogether. Her Oprah moment ought to follow.

[Jordan]

I don't think the tone of this article is at all helpful. I say this as a person who was raised Catholic and is truly shaped by the tradition, but who is also gay. The bottom line is that most people make no effort to understand the degree of hardship that homosexual persons experience and how this pain is shared by the families who love them, and how confusing this is for everyone involved. They make no effort to understand what it is to be told that you are broken in your capacity to love fully, with your soul and body, and that you are disordered with regard to the object and extent of your love. I am respectful towards persons who believe traditional Christian teaching regarding homosexuality, because I understand how deeply this runs in the Christian tradition, which I see as a very grand thing. I have no hatred towards the Catholic Church, but I really wish that Catholics would sincerely try harder to have compassion and understand that they proclaim a teaching that runs counter to many persons experience of life and love, and that this is not easy for gay people and their families.

It does not help how terribly the Church has failed on many fronts, such as the scandal of child abuse, or when we find priests leaving the church to be married or that leaders of lay apostolates have lived secret and hypocritical lives.

Of course Anne Hathaway and her family do not understand your position! Do you demonstrate even a remote attempt to at least understand the pain that her brother and family went through? Are you so content to act like you live blessed with constant moral clarity and that none of this ever amounts to a truly agonizing struggle for so many? A struggle that perhaps you, as heterosexuals, probably don't quite understand?

Have you, as a Church, worked truly hard to make it clear that this comes from a place of love? Have you ever done anything personally for a gay person who's life is made miserable by bullying, discrimination or even assault, even if you can not condone his moral choices?

So often we hear "God loves you, but does not condone your moral choices". Well, you make his dissaproval of our lives quite clear. But, honestly ask yourself, how often do you make clear his love? Then you act irritated and condesccending because "we don't understand".

[Thomas]

Jordan,

Concretely, I'm not sure what you're looking for. We all have our own sins to deal with. For a Catholic who has same-sex attraction, how is it any different for a Catholic who is prone to unjust anger, or jealousy, or any other misdirected sexual desire? Either you believe the Church is what she says she is or you don't. If you don't, then go on your way. If you do, then try to live out her teachings. Really, what more do you want than for Catholics to propound Church teaching? Do you want a slap on the back and for us to say we know it's tough? Hell, we have our own shortcomings and disordered impulses to deal with. What makes you so unique? Just because "gay rights" are the current cause celebre? Homosexuals are held to the EXACT same standard as the rest of us: chastity, humility, obedience, charity, etc. I have always found the apostasy over this or that moral teaching that happens to actually apply to the individual tiresome. We all have our problems; deal with yours.

[David]

Thomas,

"Do you want a slap on the back and for us to say we know it's tough? Hell, we have our own shortcomings and disordered impulses to deal with."

I often feel that is exactly what we want once we realize how hard it is to deal with our own disordered impulses. There's nothing like a kind word when you're down. If you don't receive it, you have a tendency to get very resentful towards yourself and others. Nothing kills a community like resentment among its members.

[Jordan]

And this is more evidence of the ongoing divide. You want to act like homosexuality is a disorder just like any disorder of excessive anger or alcoholism.

Your inability to see the depth of this crisis in the person is why, I think, most Christians lack any real compassion for homosexuals. You prove time and time again you do not understand us or really listen to us when we speak. We are talking about something which is not evidently destructive to our own relationships [like alcoholism is, like excessive rage is, like drug abuse].

Now, I am not talking about an objectively hedonist gay "culture" here, I am talking about a relationship between two persons, which, for them and for their families, is experienced as a genuine good, is really loving, but nonetheless must be torn apart because of an abstract notion of natural law. And neither is it like how a young couple is told they can not have sex until they are married, or the burden one denying one's self this or that lustful desire because, as St. Paul writes, all heterosexual people have valid venues to let off their sexual energy- marriage.

All people struggle with lust, and it is clear to many of us, that unbridled sexual expression and living by the impulse can not but end in ruin.

But a homosexual's exile from sexual expression is, in your scheme, absolutized. Not only sexual desire, but all of those emotional desires which reach out to lover and say "I want to be with you til the end".

There is no valid context for those urges which come to him naturally and which, further, are also part and parcel of his love for someone.

Christians either reduce us to total hedonists or they say our disorder is just one more among many with which every Christian must deal with.

They want to make it a question of sheer beastial desire, and never consider the implications of the homosexual living a life of emotional and psychological alientation, unable to have a partner to report to and share his life with [which is a true joy for those who know it], unable to enter into a dignified celibacy like those for Holy Orders, unable to participate, in many ways, in the culture at large.

[Joe]

Jordan,

I think your point is terrific.

The CDF document gives support to it as well.

So thank you.

But admitting the seeming unfairness of life does not negate the Church's teaching. The fallen world is a huge tragedy, and life is for many people a huge trial. I think only Christ's grace can make it bearable for a person with homosexual desires to see clear to a different sort of life, and even then not with ease.

My only caveat is that many people do lead lonely and isolated lives, and that our modern idea that Jesus is a quick fix rings hollow. Also, homosexuality is hardly an all or nothing situation in many cases. Folks laugh at Alan Chambers and Exodus, or Courage, but i think their testimony says alot more than anyone--the Church included--gives proper attention to.

[Thomas]

So I'll ask again: What, concretely, do you want from us? You say there is much suffering for the homosexual; I get it. Life isn't a feather bed. The ironic thing is that leaving the Church is leaving the one and only institution in this world that gives direction, meaning, and purpose to man's suffering. Come back, live the Church's teaching as best you can, go to Confession frequently, receive Communion regularly. Don't cut yourself off from your one true hope.

The Church is never going to say that sodomy is okay, so make a choice. Immerse yourself in the life of the Church and you will find ample outlets for the ordering of your needs - friendship, community, prayer, and, yes, the Cross.

God bless you, Jordan.

[Sylvia Marie]

Holy Spirit, come to these men, most especially David and Jordan, who experience homosexual desires and help them to pray for relief from these desires. Shower them with your graces and your consoling presence. Through your graces give them strength to resist the temptation of acting out these disordered desires. Help them to offer their hardships and sacrifices to Jesus Christ. Help them to take up this cross and bear it knowing that God’s love is more rewarding and more ecstatically fulfilling than any transitory joining of bodies. Pour out your graces upon them so that they may thereby strengthen themselves against feelings of alienation which the Tempter dangles before them. Most Holy Spirit, most wonderful Advocate, I beg you to bring to these men the graces which will reveal to them that true Joy and Dignity can be obtained only through Our Lord Jesus Christ. In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[Jordan]

Again, I did not come here to argue with you over the morality of homosexuality. I am not asking you to change your minds. I simply commented on how I think this article is damaging in tone and in approach. It is condescending and it admits none of the pain that I imagine that this family might have gone through.

I know very well the pain of a family when a loved one comes out- I myself being the one who came out. My family stopped attending Mass, even though I never asked them to.

I am the only one who still attends.

If you think all you need to do is talk, and talk loud, shout at us even, then that is fine. But I don't think you should be surprised when people appear to misunderstand the Church, or when they become deaf to you.

There are, however, other people who live in close proximity to homosexuals, who are their friends and know them and suffer with them [com-passio].

You are losing very many people over this. I am not asking the Church to change what she teaches, but I think it is time you change your strategy or your language, and certain articles like this one which simply look down on people for not understanding a message which you can't seem to properly convey.

Just some advice from someone looking in.

[Roberta Young]

Jordan, you say that gays are unable to participate in the culture at large? Given that the media and entertainment industry are entirely on the side of gay marriage proponents and vilify anyone who supports marriage as it has always been understood, how are you unable to participate in the culture? For such a tiny minority you have a staggering influence on the culture far beyond your numbers.

[Cristina A. Montes]

To David and Jordan: There are, in fact, Catholic groups that support homosexuals who want to live their lives according to the Church's teachings. They don't force homosexuals to be straight, but they give them the spiritual, psychological, and social support they need to live chaste lives. Courage and Exodus were already mentioned by an earlier poster. Doubtless, not a few Catholics act as if they don't have compassion for homosexuals, but the existence of the groups already mentioned show that there are Catholics who, while not deviating from what the Church teaches, are actually interested in helping those who find her teachings extraordinarily difficult.

Finally, while the Catholic Church's teachings are demanding, the Catholic Church herself gives the help to live up to her demands. And I'm not just referring to psychological support (the "slap on the back"), but actual spiritual support in the form of the sacraments and prayer.

Of course, a lot of it would also depends on whether the person wants to open his mind to the help that the Catholic Church offers. The Catholic Church cannot help those who prefer to insist that she does not understand them.

[Jordan]

Roberta,

I'm talking about options for gay people who choose to be celibate,

[David]

I'm actually not gay. When I said "we", I was speaking for people in general (and myself) and not just gays. When I said "disordered impulses", I wasn't alluding to any specific form. Sorry for the confusion.

I side with Jordan on one crucial point: truth without charity is brutality.

"Two of the seven spiritual works of mercy are to instruct the ignorant and admonish sinners; consider my post a modest effort toward those ends."

Its a shame that the author doesn't also bear wrongs patiently and forgive all injuries. How can you perform a spiritual work of mercy that satisfies 2 acts and violates 2 acts? I don't think that the author had mercy in mind when he wrote.

[Joe]

Jordan's point holds: to have an orientation that excludes one from 'normal' society, marriage, kids... and have no reason why one is so afflicted... I can't think of another like it scenario, period. Especially when to 'deny' it is to go against almost all current conventional wisdom, despite the wink-wink insistence of 'Will & Grace.'

Interestingly, when I remarked about a homosexual friend, "I just hope they can somehow maybe work through it," the retort I got form almost all, Christian and non-Christian alike, was, "What are you talking about? He is GAY!" If the consensus now is to view people as GAY as an identity, versus dealing with same-sex attractions, then we are essentially saying some people are just screwed as far as the prospect of a happy life from the get-go, unless the embrace a paradigm of heroic self-denial and solitude.

As I said above, I sort of think that IS in fact the truth--life is a struggle. BUT I also don't expect an unbelieving world or a nominal Catholic fed on the current parish pablum to buy it. We are sqwaking over gay marriage and not doing a nearly-good enough job just talking about sex, gays, etc in a way people can really grasp. And since the culture is talking about it ad nauseum, we need too. Jordan is right, we ARE losing people over this, and risk losing a good chunk of a generation. Consider the fact the the U.S. President is telling everyone that viewing homosexuality as bad is a holdover view like racism we need to work against. That's the voice of the free world. In response we offer statements so nuanced it's hard to see through them because we are afraid of being bigots. So the challenge is Clarity and Charity, both urgently needed.

But since Ann Hathaway is a Hollywood loudmouth, I still think Carl's retort was pretty justified. She wants to tell her brother he's OK. Funny thing is most gays really are not happy with their circumstance and don't feel OK. I've never meant someone thrilled to be gay. Much easier for the families to try to pretend it is great than for all involved to deal with the difficult reality of a sin-stained and bent world.

[Paul List]

I see this poor girl has 'found her brother', and made him God even unto death........

[Moonchild02.blogspot.com]

Instead of arguing with people over it, why don't you just point them to Courage Apostolate? Courage is a Catholic group that ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their families. It gives them a place to belong to, and a way to cope with being gay and Catholic. It's helped a lot of people.

I'm not gay, but I have many friends who are. They're not Catholic, so they would never enter Courage, but I found out about this ministry when trying to see how exactly the Church deals with something like this. It's not easy for anyone. I know that it's tough to be gay or have gay family members or friends. I've even gotten angry at some of my Catholic friends over the fact that they have not been so accepting of those with same-sex attractions, too. I think that this is an issue that the Church needs to deal with more, and speak to people about with compassion, instead of the fire and brimstone rejection that many have preached, or just ignoring it altogether, as is often done.

That said, I think that the ministry at Courage could be of great help to you.

http://couragerc.net/

[Barry Tebb]

This issue is intrinsically complex.Freud regarded homosexuality as a perversion but gave comfort to a woman whose son was gay.As a sixties person I always agreed with decriminalisation of homosexuality but to promote it as an alternative lifestyle when it so clearly conflicts with humanity's basic life structures is philosophically flawed.We are enjoined to live at peace with our neighbours but we are not enjoined to agree withe them.To my horror I discovered two people I knew,both seemingly liberal,were BNP supporters.It is not the outward lifestyle that matters but what goes on in the heart and soul.Judge not but if you do listen to the other's spiritual heartbeat.

[Carl E. Olson]

Courage is a Catholic group that ministers to those with same-sex attractions and their families.

The Truth About Homosexuality, by Fr. John Harvey, the founder of Courage, is published by Ignatius Press.

It is not the outward lifestyle that matters but what goes on in the heart and soul.

Really? That's both Manichaean and unconvincing. After all, many murderers and rapists think they did nothing wrong. Should we judge their acts of murder and rape according to what they say is in their heart and soul?

[Sue from Buffalo]

If nothing else, these commentaries have given me something to think about. I am Catholic. I am married with children. I will think about how difficult it is for homosexuals and how they are asked to carry their cross. I will do my best to love them and show compassion without giving them any encouragement to live out that lifestyle. To give them that type of encouragement would be to hurl them over a cliff. I love them too much to do that.

Jordan, I heard you. I really think that the Church (in her teachings) are stating that your cross is difficult and you are to be held with love and compassion. If individual people don't do that (and we know there are those who won't) then please forgive them and find the ones that do.

I also believe that Mr. Olson was speaking up for the Church and refuting what Miss Hathaway and Hollywood is saying. He wasn't being uncharitable. Miss Hathaway is a wounded soul and her words reflect that.

[Manuel G. Daugherty Razetto]

Here we come face to face with the unavoidable reality that, worldwide, our Church has been made unlikeable.
Thanks to God, all that is essential to know about the why and how is in the hand of a man that history has placed in our lifetime. A portentous man that says things like this:

- Most people have trouble with the Church because she is an institution like many others, which as such restrains my freedom.
- The limits the Church erects seem doubly burdensome because they reach into man's most personal and most intimate depths.
- They demand of me decisions that cannot be made without painful renunciation.
- Because the Church is not as our dreams picture her to be, a desperate attempt is undertaken to bring her into conformity with our wishes: to make her a place for every freedom.
- The Church is not a democracy.
- We must move, it is maintained, from the paternalistic Church to the community Church.
- A Church based on human resolutions becomes a merely human Church, Opinion replaces Faith.

Excerpts from the last chapter of Joseph cardinal Ratzinger book "Called to Communion" 1996

[joe]

Extremely helpful arc all in all. Thanks!

[Barry Tebb]

How on earth can I be a Manichean?They believed matter is evil and spirit good ,which is manifestly rubbish.I do not believe we should take the words of the violent and insane as any kind of "truth".Statements need to be evaluated in terms of reality which is both external/evidence based and also relates to the internal world of the subject,metabolised-in Bion's sense-by the analyst's ability to introject("take in")and re-project back to the patient/subject a reasoned view of "reality".This gentleman seems not to understand me but is hostile to what I stand for,which I would say is a Christian socialist worldview continually open to the insights of philosophy and the Klein-Bion psychoanalysis best read in Grotstein's multi-layered texts.

[LJ]

"But a homosexual's exile from sexual expression is, in your scheme, absolutized." -Jordan

This goes to the heart of the issue as far as Anne Hathaway and others are concerned. If we relativiize this and make the common claim that this is simply "Church teaching" which it is secondarily, and not "God's teaching", then Hathaway's complaint makes sense.

For the properly catechized Catholic, there should be no confusion that the Catholic Church passes on the truth of God's revelation to man. Without that, the entire edifice that is the Catholic Church is simply a long surviving religious organization clinging to a morality that may or may not be true or relevant.

As for me, if the Church did not have the authority and guarantee of the Holy Spirit to teach the truth of God's revelation, I would not be Catholic. That, in fact, is the principle reason I became Catholic. Today I would not likely even be Christian, because outside of the Catholic Church there is no assurance of truth.

But that is the context in which the teaching regarding homosexuality is given. Not as "our scheme" or system of morality, but as "God's truth." The Church not only will not change it, she cannot change it. So for a Catholic the choice, while difficult is crystal clear. Reject the authority to teach this doctrine and you are rejecting the authority to teach any other doctrine, and like Martin Luther, you are on your own. This is what is at stake, the whole package.

I would differ with you Jordan on the relative difficulty for a homosexual man in this society or at least on the reason for it. Correct me if I have mistaken your meaning. I think that in today's society, with the massive political/social force which in my opinion has gone beyond gay rights to gay privilege, the difficulty for a young man with same sex attraction is that there is no social boundary making the pursuit of his sexual desires extremely difficult to actualize.

At the same time, the understanding of sex generally has devolved to the point where the presumption is that people can have no control of their actions. I am expecting (seriously) that the legal concept of rape is on its way out, because that presupposes personal control over one's sexual actions.

So when a heterosexual says that the pressures are just as great for him as it is for a gay, he means that the entire weight of pop culture says that if you feel the desire to do it, you must do it. You should not presume to have personal control over your own actions regarding sex. And for any Catholic, gay or straight, that is the hinge-pin of the sin involved.

Beside this general culture of promiscuity, the heterosexual also has difficulty being empathetic because in their zeal to advance the cause of gays, the social-political gay rights movement has blurred the lines and the truth to encompass a wider consituency.

So we see, on so many occasions, the family man, married with children, now in his mid-fifties, suddenly coming out that he is really gay. Excuse me, but I know the mechanics involved here. I know that he cannot be "gay" in the sense that your arguments are made, Jordan. There is a lot more gray area here than is being allowed. So I now I get the feeling of being scammed, and true empathy becomes harder to come by, quite frankly. The politics and the attacks on the Church have seen to that as well.

[Carl E. Olson]

Very well said, LJ. Thank you.