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Sunday, October 25, 2009

Comments

Randy

The papacy is an obstacle but not in the sense they mean. It is not like a large animal standing on your path. It is more like a cliff that leads to the top of a mountain. The solution is not to remove it. The solution is to rise to the challenge it represents.

I know this is just chapter 1 but it seems everyone is squirming around for a way to avoid the challenge. How can we get unity without actually doing anything hard. Can we just play with words?

Re-founding the papacy seems very strange. Do they know it was founded by Jesus? Do they think Jesus is going to change it to suit modern tastes?

It seems they see ecumenism as simply a way to be more polite. Ecumenism is supposed to be a way to get closer to God. It is not about negotiation but about sanctification. It starts with the idea that we are all likely to get the faith very wrong without the communion of the saints. That is easy to say but it is very hard to swallow what that really means.

diane

Randy, I hear ya.

I am very, very concerned about resurrecting the pentarchy, which is not rooted in either Scripture or Sacred Tradition; in fact, in some ways, it was more a political construct than a theological one. And I sure don't see what we gain by reducing the pope to "primus inter pares" and adopting Orthodox ecclesiology. Orthodoxy has HUGE ecclesiological problems -- jurisdictional chaos; no definitive, authoritative, "official" answers to truly crucial doctrinal questions (it depends on which bishop you ask!); phyletism; etc. Thanks but no thanks!

Yes, we need rethink the precise way in which the popes would exercise their primacy in a reunited Christendom. But that does not mean giving away the farm. That would be disastrous. Our separated brethren *need* a strong papacy, not an impotent one. And, as you say, it was Jesus who founded the papacy...we have absolutely no authority to re-found it!

LJ

The parallel issue of the papacy is the infallibility doctrine. Contrary to what some thought at the time that the doctrine was infallibly declared by Vatican I, it should be the first issue for ecumenical dialogue, even prior to all other aspects of the papacy.

The infallibilty question is theological. That is to say there are a number of questions that can be posed regarding the doctrine; Is it possible that the Holy Spirit could protect his Church from error in that manner? Did Jesus not desire doctrinal unity as well as visible unity in his prayer the night before he was crucified? And so on.

If it is possible to find unanimity in the theological principles, then the other jurisdictional aspects of the papacy follow. In other words, without the theological basis, the papacy becomes only what many non-Catholics think it is, the top of a organizational heirarchy and no more. Even worse, for the feminist-influenced ecclesiologies, it is a patriarchy and offensive simply because it is populated by males.

I think that without theology first, people will tend to jump around in their objections, mixing theology with administration with jurisdiction, etc.

Bottom line? The rejection of the papacy has more to do with rejection of authority by denial of the existence of that authority, rather than any purely theological issue. The arguments give a patina of theology for the sake of appearance.

The problem with many of the solutions offered by the opponents of the papacy, is that however delicately and intrically they are phrased, without authority in faith and morals the real point and purpose of the papacy is moot, and the promise of Christ is mocked.

Randy

I think theology is the problem. It may not be for liberal theologians but for most protestants who believe in preserving the truth revealed by God their principle objection would be theology the pope is alleged to have gotten wrong. So you immediately get into the Marian dogmas, justification, sacraments, saints, contraception, etc. To accept infallibility is to accept that popes have been right about those things. It is very hard to open your mind to this possibility. The good news is that once you do there is much scripture and logic to back up the pope's positions. But getting past that obstacle of even openning the door a tiny crack to the chance the papacy might be right even when you are sure it is wrong. I don't see that happening. These are conservative protestants and it is against their nature to question settled doctrine.

LJ

These are conservative protestants and it is against their nature to question settled doctrine.

Randy,
That is so true, yet so ironic, especially in the context of discussing the papacy and the settled doctrines of the Church.
It also goes to show how little Sola Scriptura is adhered to in practice.

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