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Friday, May 29, 2009

Comments

Mark Brumley

Let's start taking the issues point-by-point, with the key, underlying ideas treated first.

dean

I notice that W here really falls victim to the same things he decries:

1. not really addressing all the issues in what was not an overly long original critique.

2. making unsupported statements or sweeping generalizations:

"This Jansenist negativity, which is still deeply rooted in some conservative Catholic quarters of the United States (much less in Europe)..."

I think the discussion will have good long term effects, and also as an outsider feel like the extremely defensive protection people display for "one of their own" is understandable but unnecessary. Couldn't *he* have addressed Shindler instead of mounting the valiant public defense? I guess we all are seduced by the temptation to speak out on the web!

Mark Brumley

I have no doubt that there is a "Jansenist negativity" "deeply rooted in some conservative Catholic quarters" in America. What I question is how large a group of conservative Catholics reflect that attitude. What's more, there are plenty of other conservative Catholics and non-conservative Catholics, whether liberal or middle of the road or simply uncategorizable, who don't have shame about their bodies or the "hang ups" about sexuality. It is important that TOB proponents don't act as if large numbers of Catholics have those problems when in fact it is a tiny minority of Catholics who do. The problems most Catholics today have about sexuality are quite otherwise.

Peter McCabe

"It is important that TOB proponents don't act as if large numbers of Catholics have those problems (shame about bodies, or hang ups about sexuality)when in fact it is a tiny minority of Catholics who do"
As a proponent of TOB, I can't make a claim as to how many Catholics do or don't have a "Jansenist negativity". I agree with you that problems most Catholics have today are otherwise. But I will assert this: Catholics who have problems with their sexuality, whether it be a lack of modesty, lack of proper respect for their bodies, lust, fornication, adultery, pornography, etc.; are convinced that the alternative to their current viewpoint is a negative view of the body. That is the problem. And to me the bigger 'problem' (or mission field) is not the conservative Catholic, it's the other much larger group of un-catechized, headed for destruction, Catholics.

Mark Brumley

Peter, we probably agree. An observation regarding the following:

Catholics who have problems with their sexuality, whether it be a lack of modesty, lack of proper respect for their bodies, lust, fornication, adultery, pornography, etc.; are convinced that the alternative to their current viewpoint is a negative view of the body.

Maybe.

Are the sexually indulgent "convinced that the alternative to their current viewpoint is a negative view of the body"?

Perhaps, but it is by no means obvious that they are, notwithstanding what they may say. People who act viciously often make claims about virtue and the virtuous. Or even if they are "convinced" of the negativity of the alternative views, have they "convinced" themselves of this as justification for indulging themselves?

I don't know. In any case, I agree that a sound presentation of TOB can help inform or persuade people to see sexuality properly.

Lynette Boudreaux

I invite all who have concerns or have made negative comments about Christopher West’s presentation of the Theology of the Body to attend his Head and Heart Immersion Course. I have read no criticisms that correspond accurately to anything I have ever read or heard from Christopher himself. For an opinion to be valid, it must be based upon sufficient knowledge and experience. If you have neither of these regarding Christopher, I invite you to stop commenting until you do. Expressing opinion based upon hearsay or sound-bites taken out of context does justice to no one.

I have read his books, viewed his DVD’s and attended over 90 hours of Christopher’s lectures. Never have I read or heard anything contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church. Never has he in any way promoted sodomy and according to my notes, in fact refers to sodomy as the “ultimate diabolical mockery of the one-flesh union.” Christopher is extremely careful to clarify what is from Pope John Paul II and what is from CW, repeatedly making the distinction when speaking, as well as in written documentation. Christopher has a deeply profound love and respect for JPII and the TOB; he would never intentionally misrepresent JPII or his teaching and actually prays prior to every lecture for protection against unintentionally doing just that.

Christopher’s reverence for the Eucharist and passionate love for Christ and His Bride is evidenced every day in multiple ways throughout the week long courses he offers. I can not adequately describe the profound beauty and humility this man possesses, nor can I sufficiently explain the greatness of his gift – the ability to take the complex and make it not only understandable, but experiential in a transformative way for the average person.

Again, I encourage all to schedule a course and experience this yourself, but mostly I ask all to pray for Christopher West to receive the grace needed to continue his much needed work which is clearly to promote a liberating and healing message that directs all to a deeper love for Christ and His Church. “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” Gal 5:1

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