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« Pentecost Sunday: The Church made manifest | Main | Suspect arrested in Tiller slaying »

Sunday, May 31, 2009

Comments

Joe Palvado

Pope John Paul II spoke clearly and courageously through his encyclicals, particularly Evangelium Vitae. Humanity will never find peace so long as people kill-even in righteous retribution. As reprehensible as Dr. Tiller's actions were, God alone reserves judgement. The commandment, Thou shalt not kill, with its negative connotation, has a positive corollary: love your enemy. Do good to those who persecute.

Robert Miller

"Despicable, cowardly, evil" -- does this refer to the actions of Tiller, of the shooter or of both?

Layla

We should be shocked and dismayed that a mass murderer of epic proportions was shot and killed. How horrendous. How sickening.

LJ

Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.

That is the sad reality. There is a suspect now in custody according to the article. What this killer failed to understand in committing murder, while perhaps saving the lives of some innocents, is that the clinic will still function and there will be other Tillers as long as abortion is the law of the land. This just when it seemed we had crossed to the point where a (slim) majority are pro-life in America.

Clearly pro-life means anti-murder, so this suspect could not have been pro-life, but we who are pro-life will bear the brunt of this.

Carl E. Olson

"Despicable, cowardly, evil" -- does this refer to the actions of Tiller, of the shooter or of both?

Both, surely. The man who did this (regardless of why he did it) is just as much of a murderer as Tiller.

We should be shocked and dismayed that a mass murderer of epic proportions was shot and killed. How horrendous. How sickening.

Yes, Layla, we should be shocked and dismayed when people take the law into their own hands and kill others (in a church, of all places). We can say that and still speak the truth about Tiller's bloody hands and the murderous abortion industry. But fighting murder with murder is for criminals and mobsters and punks; it is not the way to end abortion. On the contrary, this will likely help the abortion industry, which will spin it as a matter of martyrdom. That alone is sickening, and that is one reason I wrote what I did. This murder could set the pro-life movement back in a serious way--and just as it seems to have been gaining momentum in recent months.

Clearly pro-life means anti-murder, so this suspect could not have been pro-life, but we who are pro-life will bear the brunt of this.

Well said, LJ. I agree completely.

tioedong

of course it will create a backlash.
did you notice that none of the articles mentioned that he had just been acquitted of illegal practices in getting a patsy to sign off on his abortions?

Or of his many contributions to Sibelius, which resulted in her vetoing twice a bill making late term abortions illegal?

Also not mentioned: that This guy's late term abortions were done for social reasons not just abnormalities (I had an 18 year old ask me about it when Planned parenthood referred her there, and she wanted my opinion).

But watch the press spin this to bash right wing types, and of course Catholics.

Anonymous

It doesn't break my heart.

Sandra Miesel

The Sunday evening NBC news did mention the recent acquittal but no prolife person gave a soundbite. Every time this happens, the Prolife cause is gravely injured--even when the violence turns out to have been perpetrated by a nihilistic atheist, Eric Rudolph.

W.

Killings like this have raised what seems like a difficult challenge for pro-lifers. I am curious to get your opinions.

If (and this might be a big "if") one is justified to stop a murder by killing the one attempting a murder (not just direct self-defense but even protecting an innocent child about to be killed; one could even add here someone who runs a Nazi camp), what makes the killer of an abortion doctor unjustified?

To be clear, I think one is not justified, but when I debate this with friends, the challenges can be difficult. Perhaps that is because I want to say that one is justified to stop a would-be attack (killing) even if it means killing the aggressor.

I know all about the proportionate response to a threat and perhaps that is what makes a killer of an abortion doctor a murderer. The killer's response to the abortion doctor's threat is not proportionate.

But what about the following situations:

If X were going into a building to kill an innocent person, is the threat to the probable victim high enough to warrant killing X to save the innocent person?

What if X were an abortion dr. and the innocent victim were a child in the womb?

I know much of this is predicated upon an assumption, perhaps, that one is justified in killing an aggressor if he poses a grave and imminent threat to killing an innocent person, but I am just curious if someone else has faced these questions and what kind of distinctions should be drawn.

BillyHW

If an American soldier were to kill Osama bin Laden tomorrow in a mosque, would someone please explain to me the moral difference with this act against George Tiller?

(Also, would we wring our hands and lament that the killing of Osama bin Laden would only create more acts of terorism? Would we scream that the killing of Osama bin Laden was a set back for the anti-terror movement?)

Robert Miller

The shooter here was a killer; we will only know when we find out what his motives were whether he was a murderer. We know Tiller was a murderer.

Someone killed Reinhard Heydrich in 1941, and the Nazis wrought terrible retribution on people who had no involvement with the killing. In a sense, it set the anti-Nazi cause in Eastern Europe "back". Someone tried to kill Hitler in late 1944 -- and that certainly set the anti-Nazi cause "back" at a critical moment. If someone had killed Adolf Eichmann or Josef Mengele, the anti-Nazi cause almost certainly would have been set "back". But would we today call the assailant a "murderer" -- maybe, if his act was motivated by a desire to satisfy a personal vendetta; but assuredly not if the motive was to stop further, certain murders of innocents.

BillyHW

Here's another hypothetical situation: What if Killer Tiller's killer was a man whose wife had an appointment with the doctor for a Monday morning abortion to kill his own child (against his will). Would that be despicable? Cowardly? Evil?

Or a heroic father saving the life of his child?

This is not so easy.

JC

It would be justified to attack an abortionist *in* the operating room, while he was preparing to perform the act of abortion, and *only* after urging him to stop, and *only* with the intention to disabled him.

The Church has always taught that self-defense is proportionate.

To kill someone to prevent the *possibility* of evil is just premeditated murder.

Look at it this way, while he was entering into a heretical "Christian" building at the time of his murder, what if Tiller was planning on making a public statement of repentance today?

Why are so many "Christians" so doubtful of Divine Providence and Divine Mercy?

Today is Pentecost Sunday, and I see people committing the "sin against the Holy Spirit" by their doubts that Tiller may have repented, or by their doubts that Sotomayor may actually be secretly "pro-life."

Raving Papist

http://guweb2.gonzaga.edu/~dewolf/rice.htm

Someone asked about arguments against violence rendered against abortion providers, so I provide a link to an excellent essay by Charles Rice written in 1994.

Marguerite

Two wrongs do not make a right but to call Tiller's death a tragedy is beyond the pale of human reasoning. It is unfortunate at best, not tragic.

Janny

Tiller wasn't entering a house of worship. He was working as an usher--in a position of church leadership at that point. (So the notion of him possibly "making a public statement of repentance" is, to put it mildly, unlikely.) His being a "regular" at church, in a position where he provided witness to "faith," was the ultimate act of not only hypocrisy but sacrilege, one that he and his wife committed week after week, year after year...and the church involved let them. That, to me, is more horrifying than what transpired.

And it would not surprise me at ALL to find that this plot originated not in the pro-life movement (even in its more radical areas) but in the abortion movement itself. Hey, they're not above killing innocent babies...why wouldn't they be above killing one of their own as a martyr to the cause?

I'm not celebrating this, but as one poster put it above, neither has this broken my heart. The first thing I thought was that some babies' lives might be preserved for at least one more day...

JB

Ed Peters

"Inconsistency" is one of the last trans-ideology sins, that is, one's "inconsistency" on this issue or that still has traction across political lines. So, naturally, the MSM is shouting about the "inconsistency" of pro-lifers (assumming, etc.) killing an abortionist.

It's all an MSM lie of course.

Every pro-lifer I know condemns the killing of Tiller and the killing of babies. But the MSM condemns only the killing of Tiller. Talk about brazen inconsistency.

Thomas More

This murder was not justified as an act of self defense becuase under the current law, even if you killed one abortion doctor, a woman is entitled to get an abortion. She can go to the next clinic. Therefore, the death you inflicted did not directly save anyone.

But other than this point. We need to not fear a backlash. No one in the pro-life movement advocated this action. We are not responsible for it. Do not let the pro-aborts use this. It will only set us back if we let it. It is the pro-abortion groups and individuals like Obama who have caused this problem. They have helped establish a culture where acts of violence (murder of the unborn) in a place of peace (the womb) is accepted as a solution to people's problems. Only now, after the culture of death and violence they helped shaped spills over into the lives of their friends and supporters that they care. Therefore, I find it ironic that Obama says that violence is not a solution to "our differences" but apparently he believes that violence is a solution to a woman's difficulties. May God have mercy on us all, but especially on Tiller and his murderer.

MenTaLguY

BillyHW: your OBL scenario would constitute a war crime, actually, unless the soldier had cause to believe that OBL was armed, or shot him inadvertently during combat.

BillyHW

Okay. American soldier kills Osama bin Laden. War Crime.

Got it.

If only I had received a decent Catholic education when I was a child, I would have been asking all these stupid questions this whole time.

Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya...

Dr John James

I'm far removed across the Pacific Ocean in Sydney but I'd make a couple of points. This is a tragedy and we should extend our condolences to Dr Tiller's family but I wouldn't hesitate to make the perhaps obvious point that this is a tragedy because a man has had his most fundamental right violated, the right not to be subjected to lethal violence and we expect the protection of the community from such violence.All the pro-life movement is arguing is that an entire section of the human family is being denied that same right.

Jack

As Mother Theresa accurately said, if abortion is not wrong, then nothing is wrong. Violence begets violence.

MenTaLguY

BillyHW: American soldier deliberately and knowingly kills an unarmed man in a non-combat situation. War Crime. Doesn't really matter who the man is.

If it was in a combat situation, or if OBL tried to attack or resist being detained (basically turning it into a combat situation), proportionate force, up to and including lethal force, would be quite justified.

MenTaLguY

I can't ignore the context the discussion is taking place in, either. If the implication is that because he is a very bad man, it is okay to shoot OBL unarmed in a house of worship, in analogy with Tiller's case, the most charitable thing I can think of say is that perhaps you need to stop getting your moral theology from "24".

joanne

"Look at it this way, while he was entering into a heretical "Christian" building at the time of his murder, what if Tiller was planning on making a public statement of repentance today?

Why are so many "Christians" so doubtful of Divine Providence and Divine Mercy?

Today is Pentecost Sunday, and I see people committing the "sin against the Holy Spirit" by their doubts that Tiller may have repented, or by their doubts that Sotomayor may actually be secretly "pro-life."'

JC, Catholic pro-lifers are praying for the soul of Tiller, as we prayed for his conversion prior to his murder. If we doubted God's mercy, there would be no need to pray for Tiller's soul. We would just assume that he was in hell.
Similarly, we hope that he took whatever last opportunity he had while alive to repent of killing 65,000 children and wounding countless men and women by his abortion "service". But to doubt that he was sorry at the last second is not a sin against the Holy Spirit. (it would be presumption to assume that he was) And it is clear that Tiller's murderer did not intend for Tiller to have a last chance of repentance.
We rely on God's mercy, and are confident that He has heard our prayers on behalf of George Tiller, and for all people hurt by his killer's act, including the killer.

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