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Tuesday, October 28, 2008

Comments

Jackson

Did you see Ben Stein's Expelled? I heard someone say that Dawkins comes off as "reptilian" in it. Agreed!

Everyone, read Thomas Crean's excellent God Is No Delusion: A Refutation of Richard Dawkins.

Mark Brumley

Carl, you shouldn't hold back. You should tell us what you really think.

Nick

This is basically the way universities are run these days, the more you attack Christianity and such, the "smarter" and more qualified you are. That is essentially where Dawkins gets his "credibility" from in the eyes of "academia" and media.

It is similar to how a generation ago liberal bishops and liberal priests and liberal theologians held a stranglehold in Catholic universities and seminaries, but thankfully things are changing for the better.

Carl E. Olson

Carl, you shouldn't hold back. You should tell us what you really think.

Careful what you ask for!

LJ

I wonder if Dawkins has noticed that in the best fairy tales, the fantasy world and its characters have boundaries, limitations, systems, strengths, weaknesses and obstacles to overcome; all of which are structured and bounded by reason, the reason of the author.
Those worlds are not our worlds but are parallel worlds, still using the operating system of reason. They are profoundly an exercise of reason, and, as any fantasy writer will tell you, not easily designed. That is why there are so few Tolkiens in the world.

In some sense writing fantasy is an expression of the image and likeness of God. Like all creative activity it is a God given, God-imitating impulse.

Vincent Toups

Dawkins may be a small-minded fool, but you paint the dichotomy between the faithed and faithless too starkly.

I object quite strongly to the characterization that fantasy is "anti-scientistic" or that, as you really seem to be implying, a person cannot believe science is the "only way to make sense of life" and simultaneously recognize the usefulness of myth and fantasy.

The real case is that Myth and Fantasy ARE about systemitizing as surely as Calculus or Cladism are, but rather than decomposing the world into real numbers, infinitesimals and functions, myth decomposes the world into the elements of human psychology. Human brains host the richest informational phenomenon in the known universe, it would be a great poverty to expect our attempts to position ourselves in the universe to be restricted to things as simple (though powerful) as Calculus and, for instance, the Standard Model of Particle Physics. The issue, which you only hint at, is when adult humans insist that myths reflect and/or predict fundamental qualities of the universe. The issue arrives when myth forgets its place and becomes simple, if beautiful, falsehood.

It is this which Dawkins is animated against.

I am not sure what you precise philosophical background consists of, but I am certain you agree with me on the following: regardless of the nature of the truth, it is better for a person to believe something which is true rather than something which is false. If Christ is the Incarnation, then it is good to believe it. If he is not, then, regardless of its theological implications, it is beneath the dignity of a human to believe otherwise.

Myth has proven itself over and over to be flaccid when it comes to arriving at the real truths of the Universe, the actual happenings and rules which even the most religious person must admit constitute reality. Each particular religion holds up its own mythical narrative as real and full of wisdom while pointing at other systems, whose narratives are identical, or nearly so, in their quality, differing only in their exact decomposition of the human landscape into ideas. Any particular system might be right, but we will never arrive at that correctness by systematically comparing the virtues of a mythology where man-becomes-god (Mormonism) and one where God-becomes-man (Catholicism). If we could arrive at consensus this way, Mormonism or Catholicism would long since have subsumed one another.

You must admit, from a Catholic perspective, Mormonism is the very image of myth become pernicious.

Myth and fantasy are vestments for truth arrived at by other means. They may help us internalize or understand how humans as a phenomenon relate to particular truths, but they have never demonstrated a substantial ability to pick knowledge out of the swirling impressions that constitute our universe. Science HAS demonstrated this ability for the last thousand years, and in doing so has presided over the most materially successful period in human history (not that material success is the best or even an important measure of quality of life).

Dawkins is merely asserting that, however we raise our children, we should instill in them a respect for truth, the truths arrived at by science, and deter them from believing fantasy as thought it were more than on of many human tools.

I do not believe labels behoove us in most circumstances, but for the moment I will happily self-apply "secular-fundamentalist" while simultaneously asserting the value and usefulness of myth.

Carl E. Olson

Dawkins may be a small-minded fool, but you paint the dichotomy between the faithed and faithless too starkly.

The stark dichotomy is between Dawkins and commonsense.

I object quite strongly to the characterization that fantasy is "anti-scientistic" or that, as you really seem to be implying, a person cannot believe science is the "only way to make sense of life" and simultaneously recognize the usefulness of myth and fantasy.

I was making an important distinction between science, which I wholeheartedly think is a wonderful and good thing, and scientism, which is the false belief that only science can provide truth, meaning, and wisdom. It is the latter that Dawkins believes in. It follows that if a person believes that only science can make sense of life--by which I mean the purpose and meaning of life, not the biological make-up of life--that they will not allow the usefulness of myth and fantasy.

It is this which Dawkins is animated against.

Is it? I don't think so. He appears to believe that fairytales--by their very nature--lead to irrational thinking.

The problem, as authors such as Crean and McGrath have detailed, is that while Dawkins may be a brilliant biologist, he is a poor philosopher. And it's not evident at all that Dawkins would agree with you that, "Myth and fantasy are vestments for truth arrived at by other means." As for Dawkins' respect for truth, it's more than a little interesting that while he both denounces and misunderstands what the Judeo-Christian tradition says about God, he himself is apparently open to the possibility that man was created by extra-terrestrials. So maybe he's not so anti-myth after all, eh?

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