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Thursday, January 24, 2008


Ed Peters

I never understand the pro-abort who says "abortion is a wrenching, difficult issue". What the H-E-double-toothpicks is so wrenching and difficult about it? Only this: it's a baby getting whacked. If abortion ain't a baby death, it ain't wrenching and difficult. But if it is a baby, then man, why are you doing about it?

Spirit  of Vatican II

No one is pro-abortion. Obama probably wants abortion to be safe legal and _rare_, as opposed to unsafe, illegal and frequent, which was the concrete effect of church-inspired policies in Mexico and Italy. Abortion frequency has been halved in Italy since it was legalized.

Carl Olson

No one is pro-abortion

I think we've heard this before...


SOV2 -

"Abortion frequency has been halved in Italy since it was legalized."

Please provide evidence of this.

(Abortion was legalized in Italy through the 12th week in 1979 and upheld in a referendum in 1981. See this page:

The overall numbers have gone down steadily since 1984, three years after it was legalized. I also might add that it increased by 62% in the four years after 1979.


"Who's pro-abortion? "
How about Barbara Ehrenreich, Katha Pollit, and just about anyone who's ever written for "The Nation", not to mention elements in the environmental movement.
Out of curiosity where in the "Spirit of Vatican II" do you find even reluctant acceptance of abortion? Oh, right. Just like the Constitution. "Emanations and prenumbras" no doubt.


Another item of note: the birthrate in Italy has decreased from 2.44 births/woman in 1970 to 1.22 in 1997, and is still about 1.23 births per woman. The fact that births have declined with abortions likely points to the fact that most people are either using artificial contraceptives or sterilizing (I suppose that the entire country could be using NFP, but that would have to be the best kept secret in the western world, aside from some secrets kept by albino Opus Dei monks).

Ed Peters

I just like to remind somebody that the "Spirit of Vatican II" was the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the same Holy Spirit Who animated every ecumenical council. So I'd be real, real careful, about what words I put in His mouth. God has long memory.

Carl Olson

I included this link in my post, but just in case SofVII didn't see it, here is what one pro-abortion blogger has to say about the silly argument, "No one is pro-abortion":

I am pro-abortion. Not pro-choice. Pro-abortion. I think this is an important distinction because I hear some pro-choicers say they support the right of a woman to choose, but they would never want to have or would want their lover/girlfriend/wife to have an abortion.

I don’t get that. I can’t say I support the right for a woman to get an abortion and then say abortion is bad. Abortion is good. When a woman evaluates where she is in the universe and decides that she should have an abortion, she is doing the right thing. And she is doing a good thing.

An abortion is nothing to be ashamed of. However, saying you are pro-choice and with the next breath saying you would never get an abortion is shaming those who have.

I hate that. “I’m pro-choice, but I would never get an abortion.” Or, “I’m pro-choice, but I would never want my girlfriend to have an abortion.” Or, “Abortion is never a good thing, but we need to protect a woman’s right to choose.”

If the right to choose is good, then abortion is good. Does that mean we need more abortions – more of a good thing? No. We need as many abortions as we need. No more, no less.

Jeff Miller

That is just the latest in the run of rhetorical double plays that is becoming more common as an excuse.

I wonder if he would consider someone who always voted for slavery as pro-slavery? Or would he think it a choice of a landowner to make? Somehow I doubt if he would see it that way.

Though the pro-abortion side has always only had lies on their side for armament so we can't expect something different.

Spirit  of Vatican II

The Italian statistics can easily be found on the web, and they are constantly cited by Italians. When an effort was made to overturn the 1978 law in a 1981 (or so) referendum it was defeated by a huge majority. Was there a rise in abortions in the first years of the legislation? Not in comparison with the statistics alleged for illegal abortions before 1978.

Spirit  of Vatican II

For the Italian abortion statistics, here is a place to start:

Spirit  of Vatican II

"Subsequent to the legalization of abortion in Italy in 1978, abortion rates among Italian women first rose and then declined steadily, from a peak of 16.9 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age in 1983 to 9.8 per 1,000 in 1993... Data from 1981 and 1991 indicate that age-specific abortion rates decreased during the 1980s for all age-groups, with the largest declines occurring in regions with the highest levels of abortion. Moreover, a shift in the age distribution of abortion rates occurred during the 1980s, with women aged 30-34 registering the highest abortion rate in 1991, whereas in 1981 the highest level of abortion occurred among those aged 25-29. The abortion rate among adolescent women was low at both times (7.6 per 1,000 in 1981 and 4.6 per 1,000 in 1991). These data are based only on reported legal abortions; the number of clandestine abortions remains unknown. (Family Planning Perspectives, 28:267-271 & 277,1996)"

Spirit  of Vatican II

In 1978 the number of legal abortions was legal, so naturally the first line on the graph was a straight ascent. But since 1983 the line is going down, so that in concrete the law is accompanied by abortions getting rarer. A problem with interpreting this is the lack of reliable statistics for illegal abortions.

Spirit  of Vatican II

Correction -- shd read: Up to 1978 the number of legal abortions was zero.

Peter Brown

It always sounds cockeyed to me when somebody argues for the legality of abortion and then talks about Jesus "prioritizing the least of these over the powerful." What in the world are unborn children, if not "the least of these"—in fact, the very "least of these," the most defenseless people in our society bar none?



Well since we don't have any accurate evidence of the number of abortions before they became legal we can't really know if that trend is due to abortion being legal or if it's a trend predating it or if it's due to something else altogether. So I don't see how it can be claimed that there are absolute proofs that making abortions legal lowered the rate. It's like claiming that legalizing divorce would decrease the amount of marriages that fail... Nonsense!

Dan Deeny

Let's all pray for Sen. Obama. Let's pray that Jesus helps him change his mind. Is Sen. Obama aware of Does anyone ever ask him about African-Americans and abortion? As far as I know, only one member of the Black Caucus has been against the abortion business. That was Mickey Leland from Texas and he died in a plane crash in Ethiopia. The Prince of Darkness himself must have thought of this program. Imagine getting the public leaders of a group you are trying to exterminate help you exterminate their group!

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