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« Co-habitation and Canon Law | Main | Steve Ray and China »

Monday, July 02, 2007

Comments

Jackson

I wish I could say it's incredible.

Jeff Miller

And from the infamous St. Joan of Arc parish in Minnesota is this tidbit in their bulletin last week.

"Pride Week Activities: The SJA community is partnering with other welcoming congregations and organizations to march in the GLBT Pride Parade behind the banner "Inclusive Catholics." All are welcome today. Parade starts at 11am at Hennepin Ave and 3rd St."

rusty

I have written to the Bishop, his assistant, the Papal nuncio, and the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith. I don't know if it will do one iota of good, but I can't sit by and not speak up.

LJ

How appropriate that the first reading for today's Mass is the dialogue that Abraham had with God, trying to save Lot's life, and attempting to see how few righteous people would be enough to spare the city of Sodom from destruction.

There are many who shrug and say gay, straight, what's the difference? Apparently, to God there is a very significant difference and He has little patience for this kind of corruption. How long will He wait for America?

BJ

Just to let you know about St. Joan of Arc, there is someone who is sending out e-mails and posting on the internet doctored photos of the parish's website. They are false e-mails and false pictures. Before believing the e-mails and such, we should find out from the parishes the reality that is going on by contacting them. I do agree that this is a problem, but we must be careful to have our facts in order before acting upon them.

BillyHW

Hey Carl, now that your new bishop has had a chance to settle into his new job, has he given any indications that he's going to clean up these abuses?

"Abuses" though isn't quite the right way of putting it, more like "crimes that cry out to heaven for justice."

Celestial SeraphiMan

I have to make a comment to try to balance the rhetoric. I'm not here to defend the homosexual lifestyle, but to question the most strident rhetoric? Where are the Chinese and Japanese residents of San Francisco supposed to go if living in that city is a mortal sin? To the Deep South where they are likely to be targeted by white-nationalist propagandists? Isn't liberalism the exact reason why Asians and other people of color are welcome? Weren't homosexual persons killed by the Nazis? One could argue that Satan lived in Auschwitz, yet the lack of destruction of Auschwitz seems rather suspicious to certain activists. What about today's Polish skinheads who scream "fags to gas"?

I'm sorry for rambling, people. I'm just trying to get at the truth, not simply mindlessly follow conservative rhetoric. I just want to reach people with the whole Gospel, not scream or spit or kick or stab or send into gas chambers.

Tom

Is that what you really think of the South, that it's teeming with racists?

Celestial SeraphiMan

Hasn't the South historically been white-supremacists? I would argue that if you caricature the Bay as teeming with flamboyant hedonists, then I have a right to argue that the South is teeming with racists. I recently went on my family on a vacation to the Bay Area. I didn't see any flamboyant hedonists or wall-to-wall propaganda. Instead, I saw tourists trying to find something charming or heart-warming and residents trying to make a living.

BillyHW

Instead, I saw tourists trying to find something charming or heart-warming and residents trying to make a living.

I saw a naked man being spanked in front of children.

matt

Seraphiman,

Where are the Chinese and Japanese residents of San Francisco supposed to go if living in that city is a mortal sin? To the Deep South where they are likely to be targeted by white-nationalist propagandists? Isn't liberalism the exact reason why Asians and other people of color are welcome? Weren't homosexual persons killed by the Nazis?

Do you have pictures of huge parades of white supremacists marching through the streets of Atlanta? Ummm.... in this century?

No, liberalism is not why "people of color" are welcome, at least not the type of liberalism we are dealing with here. You have to make distinctions between issues of race and issues of morality. Homosexual behaviour is disordered and immoral, being black or asian is not.

If you look at legitimate historical sources, homosexuals were not targeted by the Nazi's, granted they were swept up along with many other people. In fact, it's believed that a number of high-placed Nazi's were homosexual. No, I am not making a connection between homosexuality and Nazism, just demonstrating that they were not targetted.

God Bless,

Matt

Celestial SeraphiMan

Matt,

I do make the "distinctions between issues of race and issues of morality". Unfortunately, too many people don't. Moreover, isn't liberalism open by nature, whether to the right things or the wrong things? Isn't conservatism closed by nature? If liberalism is the exact opposite of conservatism, why wouldn't they have the exact opposite views of race? Recall Sam Francis. Recall David Duke.

As for the Nazis, what about the pink triangles stitched onto prison uniforms? What about the pro-family quotes attributed to Hitler?

I appreciate the dialog.

skyhawk

Seraphiman,

You've obviously never been to the South, or you must be deaf and blind. Come down here to Texas and I challenge you to show me that we are racist. Sure you'll find some idiots here and there, but I don't think that's a trait of the South; you can find those anywhere in the US.

skyhawk

It's not true that modern liberalism is open and welcoming to all. It always requires you to think alike, if not you're undesirable, that's why we practicingCatholics are shunned by that system. Any person grounded in reality knows that there are no systems of thoughts that are not based on some kind of "truth" or fact through which everything is judged. The problem are people like Seraphiman that claim to be fair and "just dialoguing" but can't even admit that they're partial. I admit that I'm partial and anybody that knows me know where I stand and what are my "prejudices" (liberal talk... not mine). Can we say the same about people like you? Sure! And Bill Moyers is impartial and is politically neutral in his coverage... right.

John Herreid

CSM: I live in San Francisco. It's a wonderful place--I'm not planning on moving. But you can't avoid the fact that as a city, it is dominated by anti-Catholic, anti-Christian, anti-family political thugs. We may have vibrant and holy parishes in parts of the city, but we also have these parishes that foment rebellion against the teachings of the Church.

If you want a taste of people who "scream or spit or kick", come join us for the next Walk for Life. It's a pro-life walk in downtown San Francisco. I was spat on, screamed at, kicked, and even tackled from behind by an angry "pro-choice" demonstrator.

I also took part in a pro-family walk in North Beach. There too, the ugliness of what passes as liberalism was evident in the response.

You may have been told that these sorts of behaviors only happen on one side, but believe me--the San Francisco "liberal" is quite capable of behaving in ways that are incredible ugly, whethere it's "peace protestors" breaking a policeman's leg (yes, really happened), or an angry transvestite getting naked and screaming and spitting at families with young children (happened at the first Walk for Life).

When people are shown gay people on TV or in movies, it's always toned down and made palatable. But when you go to San Francisco and encounter the actual thing in the Castro, or at the Gay Pride Parade, or the Folsom Fair, you see that the reality is very different. That's why it's important to show these images and let people know that it isn't all just what they see on TV. It's miles away from that.

Rick

"I have to make a comment to try to balance the rhetoric."

In some way you must consider yourself the great equalizer. But it seems like that in trying to "balance" rhetoric you only manage to create rhetoric.

finegan

As long as this kind of heretical nonsense it tolerated by the Church, I find it very hard to stomach comments about how "schismatic traditionals" need to return to "full communion" with Rome. How much you wanna' bet the pastor of this "parish," as well as his local Bishop, are considered to be "with Rome" by the prevailing Church authorities? Ridiculous!

John Herreid

So, figegan, one brand of disobedience excuses the other? Nice display of relativism.

Dave Deavel

Thanks, BJ. I somehow got on one of these email lists and wondered if it wasn't someone trying to make St. Joan of Arc look even worse than it is. Is Joan of Arc's bulletin on-line to check?

Carl Olson

Hey Carl, now that your new bishop has had a chance to settle into his new job, has he given any indications that he's going to clean up these abuses?

I actually live in Eugene, Oregon, and my bishop lives in Chicago, as I attend the Nativity of the Mother of God Ukrainian Catholic Church, which is part of the Eparchy of Saint Nicholas (Chicago). I get down to San Francisco on occasion, but only follow events there from afar, although I have a few sources here and there. ;-)

For those who liken San Fran to Sodom and Gomorrah, do be sure to carefully read Genesis 18:16-33, which demonstrates that the LORD both judges wickedness and has mercy on those who are righteous, which is why He provided a means of escape for Lot's family. As John Herreid already stated so well, SF is filled with both good and evil; what is unfortunate is that the sin so often dominates the headlines and gets so much attention (often positive) from the MSM. But, to give just one obvious example of the good, SF is home to Ignatius Press, which is of the largest (and best, but that goes without saying, even though I am a bit biased) Catholic publishers in the world. Having now lived for 12 years in a very liberal city (Eugene, Oregon) that is also filled with a lot of anti-Catholic, pro-perversity rhetoric and activity, I can appreciate the sort of face-to-face, in the trenches spiritual combat that takes place in such communities, and would encourage readers to pray for those who are lights on the hill in such difficult situations.

Where are the Chinese and Japanese residents of San Francisco supposed to go if living in that city is a mortal sin? To the Deep South where they are likely to be targeted by white-nationalist propagandists? Isn't liberalism the exact reason why Asians and other people of color are welcome?

First, living in SF is not a mortal sin. And, as should be obvious, one can commit mortal sins just as freely in Smithville, Middle America, as they can in SF. Secondly, I can only assume you've never been to the South. There are certain places in every part of the U.S.—in cities and small towns alike—where you'll find racist attitudes, including large cities that are supposedly "progressive" and "liberal." The sort of classical liberalism that helped break down racial barriers in the U.S. should not be confused with a pseudo-multicultural, politically-correct liberalism that has little concern for upholding the dignity of every person, regardless of race, color, or creed, but is instead obsessed with a political egalitarianism rooted in a politics of privilege, power, and sexual deviancy (aka, "rights").

Dave Deavel

I did look at the Joan (I have a hard time saying they have much to do with St. Joan of Arc) website and they did indeed march in the Gay Pride Parade and did indeed have a special thanksgiving service for all their "GLBT" parishioners. But the inflammatory comments of the pastor that are being sent out in the emails were not present.

Gibbons in SF

Billy: You write: "I have to make a comment to try to balance the rhetoric. I'm not here to defend the homosexual lifestyle, but to question the most strident rhetoric." Sure you are. Your method of defense is to change the subject. The question is not one of "liberal" or "conservative." The question here is: what is the Church's teaching on "the homosexual lifestyle"? Is it sinful or not? It's a simple question. Well, the teaching of the Church is that it is sinful. Obviously, certain parishes/Catholic institutions in San Francisco don't agree with that teaching; furthermore, they publicly display their disagreement. So Archbishop Niederauer has a choice: uphold the teaching of the Church (his job)or tolerate parishes under his authority publicly affirming sinful behavior. Since the public affirmation of sin is out there for all to see, in this case silence on his part equals acquiescence.

BillyHW

I didn't write that, it was CSM.

Gibbons in SF

Right, sorry, Billy, I was looking at the wrong post.

Gibbons in SF

Seraphiman: You write: "I have to make a comment to try to balance the rhetoric. I'm not here to defend the homosexual lifestyle, but to question the most strident rhetoric." Sure you are. Your method of defense is to change the subject. The question is not one of "liberal" or "conservative." The question here is: what is the Church's teaching on "the homosexual lifestyle"? Is it sinful or not? It's a simple question. Well, the teaching of the Church is that it is sinful. Obviously, certain parishes/Catholic institutions in San Francisco don't agree with that teaching; furthermore, they publicly display their disagreement. So Archbishop Niederauer has a choice: uphold the teaching of the Church (his job)or tolerate parishes under his authority publicly affirming sinful behavior. Since the public affirmation of sin is out there for all to see, in this case silence on his part equals acquiescence.

Francis Beckwith

It seems to me that the gay activist is in the least strongest position to criticize the racist. For the gay activist, his feelings, his erotic inclinations, are the irreducible and incorrigible ground on which to base the legitimacy of his affections. Thus, a third party cannot in-principle judge these sentiments as wrong, for such sentiments by their very nature may not be the object of another's judgment. But racist offers the same reasoning: he has a deep, visceral affection, for those of his own lineage. It is, like the homosexual's, irreducible and incorrigible, something for which he can provide no articulate reasons that would convince those who do not share these deep and profound feelings. But such an understanding is pagan and unChristian. For the Christian, one does not find the good by examining one's appetite or one's paternity, unless the appetite is rightly-ordered and the paternity eternal.

Mark Brumley

Thanks, Dr. Beckwith. Good distinctions.

Dan

The worst sin here is not the sodomy. It is rather the pastor of Holy Redeemer teaching that sodomy is not sinful and the Archbishop permitting this to occur. Sin is inevitable. But it can be redeemed by confession and repetence. Sin however becomes irredeemable when it is not recognized as sin. As such, true evil takes root when sin is said not to be sin.

Celestial SeraphiMan

I apologize if I ruined this thread. I really do.

Mark Brumley

Let us pray that the Archbishop takes prompt, appropriate action here. Let us urge him to do so, not only for the good of the local Church of the Archdiocese of San Francisco, and not only for the Church universal, but also for those whom the Church exists to serve through the proclamation of the truth of God's redeeming love.

LJ

"For those who liken San Fran to Sodom and Gomorrah, do be sure to carefully read Genesis 18:16-33, which demonstrates that the LORD both judges wickedness and has mercy on those who are righteous, which is why He provided a means of escape for Lot's family."

Excellent point Carl. However, we see that it was a question of degree. Abraham kept asking God how few righteous it would take to save the city and finally got down to ten. But apparently there weren't even that many. So he helped Lot to escape. (Note what the men of the city did when those nice, good looking angels came to town. There is a certain gay compulsion to corrupt everyone around them, if possible)
But think about this Carl. Sodom most likely wasn't that bad when Lot first moved there after separating from Abraham. And if you were to look back into the history of San Francisco it wasn't always in the present moral condition either. The question is, which way is it going? It can still get worse, and that is the lesson and warning from Sodom.
If all that seems rather remote, just think what it was that buried Sodom. Fire and brimstone sounds a lot like a volcanic eruption. Sitting near or astride the San Andreas Fault certainly should give one pause, in my humble opinion.

Alabama Man

Whoo-eee!!! Send them Orientals down here to the South if ya'll don't want 'em anymore.

We'll use them as slave labor for a decade or two improving our transportation systems, then we'll let them live in little ghettos afraid to step out into broader society for decades more, then eventually we'll accept them.

That's pretty much what you did to them out in Californ-eye-ey, isn't it?

You wouldn't think Celestial beings would be such appallingly ignorant bigots, would you?

kentuckyliz

High fives to Alabama Man! But you forgot to mention the internment camps.

What Dan said. "Better a millstone."

I have a dear friend and colleague who is gay, who joined the Church and got baptized this Easter, and he knows the teachings of the Church on this issue, and it didn't keep him out. He accepts it and lives it.

Sola gratia!

Peggy

I find it quite ironic that the gay movement chooses "Pride" as its motto. Their goal is of course to eliminate feelings of shame in and for homosexuals. They seem to have not realized that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins and leads to more sin. Is there no greater evidence of that in these vulgar displays and exhibitions at "Pride" parades?

"Pride cometh before the fall" comes to mind!

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