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« It was not just the arguments—"It was the witness" | Main | "Despite the reassurances that faith gives us..." »

Tuesday, May 17, 2011

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Charles E Flynn

The idea that the granting of an annulment retroactively makes the children from the marriage illegitimate is fairly widespread, and is specifically addressed in some pamphlets about annulments I have seen.

Gail F

I think he was talking about saying the word "bastard," not saying a word that would guarantee his annulment. "Me and my wife were married in the church, and now they want me to make them [my children] something else? No, I’m not going to say the word ["bastards"], but I think everybody knows what I’m saying."

Mr. Peters is right that it's a stupid story, but many people really do think getting an annulment will make their children illegitimate.

Carlos Caso-Rosendi

This truly sad but I believe it is nothing more than the fruits of the ignorance and confusion sown in Church in the last 100 years or so. I am a convert and I was received in the Church after more than ten years of reading about the Church and her doctrines. I had to catechize myself and I am glad I did. Ten years have passed since I was received and hardly a day goes by that I don't see direct evidence of the appalling ignorance of the True Faith both among religious and lay persons. It is particularly sad to see how the most outrageous ideas are justified by a quick "I attended Catholic schools all my life." We have reached the point that the majority of Catholics are so badly formed that they even ignore the fact that they are ignorant. Among the ignorant there are many priests and other religious who take to the media their half baked ideas. That poor man has just done so. Shame on him, shame on his pastors, shame on me for not doing more to help my brothers and sisters understand the treasure they own. God help us all!

Fernando Umberto Garcia de Nicaragua

I think he's an illegal alien, and that he's under the impression that, though his children were born in the U.S. and are thus citizens, they'll lose their citizenship if he gets an annulment.

Karl

As a man who is highly critical of the Catholic Tribunals, from long personal experience and the pastoral practices that dovetail with the tribunals, often as a prime feed source, it is no surprise when people feel as Mr Armijo feels. My own children have seen the clear duplicity in these areas and although they understand the stark differences between legal legitimacy and illegitimacy, they also deeply understand the betrayal that all-too-often goes along with this process and how it leaves children devastated when a beloved parent is abandoned by a spouse who knows how to manipulate people and has friends and family who will cooperate in such profound injustice, and sets up the abandoned spouse both legally and canonically.

I have and continue to live this hell. I have seen for twenty years priests and canonists who have manipulated facts and suborned perjury and not been held to account, one iota, in spite of the Catholic Church having the evidence of their actions and certainly, my testimony.

It is the act of concluding that a valid marriage never took place that is at the heart of this issue. Because people have shared this time together, spouses and children, to "take to heart" the juxtaposition of a"lifetime" together and invalidity, is not such an easy concept to wrap one's mind around. It is "oxymoronic", even though, "clinically" it is very easy to say. It is quite another to live it, especially when it is very, very personal, very pain-filled and it "seems" contradictory.

The Catholic Church does a lousy job all the way around this entire situation and it needs to listen less to "expert" priests, bishops, theologians and canon lawyers and more to respondents who have lived through this hell of injustice and who still remain committed Catholics, especially those who have faced off against a process determined to find nullity at almost any price, and won.

If the Pope was sincere regarding his concern for marriage he would have come to America, himself, just to learn from our experiences rather than the S.O.S. from those in tribunals and pastorl ministry.

I await his personal call. I am not holding my breath.

Carlos Caso-Rosendi

Quote from the web:

"This reminds me of something I saw on TV when I was a teenager. Many years ago, when Italy was about to legalize divorce, there was no minor row going on in Parliament between the advocates of divorce and those who opposed it. At that time someone was interviewing a young Italian singer on one of those inconsequential television shows. The interviewer asked, "So what do you think of divorce? Should it be legalized? What do you think?" The artist was expected to repeat the line of the media in favor of divorce but no one ever told him what he was supposed to say. He looked at the interviewer and said, "Yes. They are going to legalize it, I think... but laws can't make a wrong right. Divorce is only for those men who do not have the spine to love a woman forever."

The whole article can be found here.

Sharon

Karl, it sounds as if you haven't recovered from the trauma of your marriage break-up twenty years ago. It would probably be of help if you were to see a psychologist who has done work with trauma survivors.

Karl

Sharon,

It sounds like you are a shill for corrupted priests and canon lawyers.

Get real and take your head from the sandbox!

Lauri Friesen

I think that the Church in North America, in her canonical tribunals, at least, has allowed the cultural permissiveness of the day to contaminate decision making. Certainly, there is plenty of evidence that annulments have been granted in very dubious circumstances. That said, I think that Pasqual got off easy in the interview. He is not being "forced out" of the Church but he is denied the honour of receiving the Eucharist, or acting as a sponsor for baptism and confirmation. Getting divorced and leaving the Church are his personal choices. He is not forced into either. He is, like all of us, forced to live with the consequences and fallout of everything he does.

Ed Peters

Gail, we can plug in any word we want, but the guy's fundamental claim that, to get an annulment, one must first "say", or "accept", or "declare", or "admit" ANYTHING, is simply wrong, and KOAT-ABQ did nothing to question that. Best, edp.

Charles

I've come to realize that it wasn't God's intended will for my parents to marry. But they did. And had the three of us. A grace to introduce reason for joy and faith despite their differences, despite their internal struggles, despite their unwillingness to reconcile. But at no point have I thought that God did not accept us three as his own adopted children. Such a thought could only come from Satan for the man to feel so in shame and not deserving of mercy and Love. No, sir, none of us are worthy of mercy, but you are loved completely by God. Know this. Accept this in your heart and it will protect you against the demons.

Karl

Unless Mr. Armijo was forced into an unwanted divorce he is likely complicit in his problem. Nevertheless, even when abandoned, unless there are some incredibly way outside the box circumstances, the choice REMAINS HIS to honor his vows, ESPECIALLY if he has children to whom honoring them WILL make an impression. Under normal circumstances a man, even if his wife abandones him, can choose to live a chast, celibate life and by doing so give a powerful, living witness for ALL marriages.

As Dr. Peters just said, there is no magic word or circumstance to lead to an assured finding of nullity. But he will find sympathetic ears, not objective ones, among most priests in any type of marital pastoral work and among many canonists. Education DOES not remove the divorce mentality. To presume so, is a fundamental mistake. In the present and past educational milieu, secular and Catholic, with rare exception, the emphasis is heavily on the side of false charity disguised as mercy. This infection is EVERYWHERE.

In my opinion, at all levels of the Catholic Church this REALITY is openly disregarded or even denied purposefully, which results in the quagmire of poor or ineffectual governance which the Catholic Church has suffered from for most of my lifetime and most certainly within the US for that same period.

I believe the Pope knows this but chooses to rely on the integrity of his fellow bishops, since that IS how the Church is set up. This is reality, but it is also a built in excuse for doing nothing or acting too slowly.

The consequences of this, we are living.

Give up your lover, Mr. Armijo. Be faithful to the vows you spoke in public. It WILL NOT kill you. It may save your soul and many others.

Christy

The Church in the USA appears very lax on annulment. It's not like this everywhere. In many Catholic countries the chance of the Church annulling a marriage are zero to nought.

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