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Saturday, June 05, 2010

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Spirit of Vatican II

Why should you find it hard to believe that Curran loves the Church? Is the Church so unlovable?

Carl E. Olson

Why should you find it hard to believe that Curran loves the Church?

Seriously? C'mon.

Is the Church so unlovable?

Apparently she is to Curran, who rejects her teachings and thus rejects the Head of the Church. Curran is like a verbally and emotionally abusive husband who is constantly bullying and mocking his wife while cheating on her, but who then, when called on the carpet, claims to be a faithful, loving husband. His words and actions over 40+ years speak for themselves. These recent words by Pope Benedict XVI, given at a General Audience on May 26th, are quite appropriate:

Generally, it is said that the meaning of the world hierarchy is "sacred dominion," but the real meaning is not this, it is "sacra origine," that is: This authority does not come from man himself, but has its origin in the sacred, in the sacrament; hence it subjects the person to the vocation, to the mystery of Christ; it makes of the individual a servant of Christ and only insofar as he is a servant of Christ can he govern, guide for Christ and with Christ. Because of this, whoever enters in the sacred order of the sacrament, the "hierarchy," is not an autocrat, but enters in a new bond of obedience to Christ: he is tied to him in communion with the other members of the sacred order, of the priesthood. And even the Pope -- point of reference for all the other pastors and for the communion of the Church -- cannot do what he wants; on the contrary, the Pope is custodian of the obedience to Christ, to his word taken up again in the "regula fidei," in the Creed of the Church, and must proceed in obedience to Christ and to his Church. Hence, hierarchy implies a triple bond: first of all, the one with Christ and the order given by the Lord to his Church; then the bond with the other pastors in the one communion of the Church; and, finally, the bond with the faithful entrusted to the individual, in the order of the Church.

Hence, it is understood that communion and hierarchy are not contrary to one another, but condition each other. Together they are only one thing (hierarchical communion). Hence, the pastor is pastor precisely when guiding and protecting the flock and at times impeding its dispersal. Outside a clearly and explicitly supernatural vision, the task of governing proper to priests is not comprehensible. But, sustained by true love for the salvation of each member of the faithful, it is particularly precious and necessary also in our time. If the goal is to take the proclamation of Christ and lead men to the salvific encounter with him so that they will have life, the task of guiding is configured as a service lived in total donation for the upbuilding of the flock in truth and in sanctity, often going against the current and remembering that the one who is the greatest must be made the smallest, and one who governs, must be as one who serves (cf. Lumen Gentium, 27).

Read the entire address.

JP

I would have to ask WHICH Church is Curran loving? The one he berates constantly, or the one he would create in his own image?

Bender

At least young Fr. Luther had the decency, in his hubris, to go start his own church.

Christopher Lake

About the first comment from "Spirit of Vatican II"... why is this "spirit," as it is so often spoken of by Catholic dissenters, usually at odds with the actual *documents* of Vatican II? Hmm?

MarkAA

Agreeing with Bender, absolutely correct. And Lutherans (of the LCMS stripe, e.g. conservative) who pay attention to issues Catholic are appalled by the amount of dissent by theologians in the Catholic church. Make no mistake: Catholic dissenters are a distasteful scandal witnessed daily by nonCatholics and are a hindrance to ideas of serious ecumenism.

Marguerite

The dissident theologians used and abused the Second Vatican Council to undermine the teaching authority of the Church, mainly out of resentment towards the hierarchy. The "spirit" that Fr. Curran used to promote his heresies was not the same Holy Spirit that was to guide the Council, but the spirit of the times--the cultural revolution of the 60s.

Tom Pratuch

I am a former military (combat) officer who took Charlie's class at CUA when I (being unfamiliar with his actual teaching) thought "wow I get to hear a famous teacher."

Charlie developed 5 points to analyze ALL moral systems -- but oddly enough consistently and pointedly refused to analyze his own stated and taught moral system. His system was to improve everyone else's.

I often debated ethics and morality issues with my instructors at CUA when I felt their military example was lacking. All but Charley expressed appreciation for an analysis based on reality. Charlie's response (age 53) to a (35 year old) army veteran was (and I quote in words I will never forget) "I cannot imagine a student disagreeing with an instructor." Yea I was so young and inexperienced.

Before he left CUA he stated (and I am quoting) "any right thinking American would agree with him." Of course America is famously Catholic.

He is someone who enjoyed the cheers of young students and thought it gave him an immortal stature. Christ warned about what happens to those who lead innocents astray.

Honor

"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."
G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

He also pointed out: "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."

Nancy

The failure to discipline and refute the denial of The Truth from those who profess to be Catholic is part of the problem, not the solution. How many souls will continue to be lost while we are sleeping in Gesthemene? Just as Peter denied Christ in public and had to reaffirm his Love for Christ in public, all those who continue to deny The Truth of Love in public should have to reaffirm their Love for Christ in public or be anathema. No doubt, if Christ were here in Person, He would be overturning tables everywhere.

Gail F

Charlie's response (age 53) to a (35 year old) army veteran was (and I quote in words I will never forget) "I cannot imagine a student disagreeing with an instructor."

Ha ha, that is rich, coming from someone who disagrees with so many renowed Catholic "instructors," starting with popes! Ah well, some people never tire of their own voices.

Michael Sullivan

Congratulations to Fr. Curran for noticing the Pope (like the emperor) isn't wearing any clothes! His dissent from these first century cultural mores is refreshing.

Many of the great Doctors of the Church at one time were at odds with the Vatican- how else can the Church evolve to continue its important mission of providing the Sacrament? No priests= no parishioners= no church. I am counting on the Holy Spirit to correct the situation with the help of thoughtful, participating Catholics- Bishop Paul Iby of Austria agrees with Fr. Curran's position on celibacy and so do I.

Nancy

Michael, according to Charles Curren the pedophilia crisis was caused by celibate Priests and NOT by men with a perverted sexual attraction who forced themselves on young children. The emperor, not the Pope, is the one who is in need of some clothes, but it appears you are in need of some glasses.

Manuel G. Daugherty Razetto

Fr. C. Curran's disgraced performance requires us to go beyond the surface of facts and penetrate to the springs within. His insidious theorizing, spurious teaching must be remembered for what is is; a man trying to disturb, undo or neutralize legitimate teachings of our Faith.

This is the man that charged, as leader of 200 'modern' theologians, against Humanae Vitae immediately after Paul VI wrote it. He was also leader in The Call to Action, the infamous Conference in Detroit (Dec. 1976) that was totally dominated by radical leftists working to democratize the Church.

Due to his unorthodoxy in many issues he was dismissed from his post as professor of Theology at the C.U.A. but, due to pressure, was reinstated.

In the 1980's Rome finally, by action of Cardinal Ratzinger, took away his license to teach as a Catholic theologian.

It is quite evident Fr. Curran shows a conflict between teaching moral theology and Faith. His disposition is proud and cynical. He neither loves nor respects the Church.

The leniency shown by Rome binds us to say that true judgment has not been passed on him yet.

Brian

I saw Curran debate Janet Smith a few years back. She destroyed him in the debate.Curran lost his temper when a student told him he was dead wrong on church teachings. I live in Dallas and have actually attended a Mass he said at the Catholic chappel at SMU. He loves to rearrage all the words of the mass and even said"Our mother, who art in heaven" The guy is totally pathetic human being and definitly needs our prayers.

JBalconi

"No priests= no parishioners= no church"

And yet Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that the harvest is plenty but the laborers are few - and He didn't say that would change. He also said that the Church would prevail against Hell and still exist when he came again.

Curtis Johnson

Recently, I read an article about the scandal of priestly pedophilia along with a suggestion by Father Curran that the celibacy expected by candidates to be Catholic priests contributes to the problem. As an Orthodox Christian, I am surprised that Catholic priests and deacons cannot have a spouse, as was originally the case..(St. Peter was married, among others)so I began to research the Council of Trent's findings on the issue. Remarkably, the Church in the West seems to have had a problem in medieval Germany with the transfer of Church property when the priest had a family...Western priests and deacons had the right to marry at that time, as it still is the norm among Eastern Orthodox Priests and Deacons. I would like to understand why celibacy is held as somehow spiritually better for people than the married state since Moses records in Genesis that God concluded..."it is NOT good for the man to be alone...let Us therefore make for him a helpmeet..." The married state, I might add, is the reason all of us have human life to begin with, and that includes Rev. Ratzinger and all the present members of the College of Cardinals. Banning marriage creates, it would seem to me, a market for men whose sexual proclivities might be a bit unsuitable for a cleric whose duty it is to minister to the married laity and gives the devil an opportunity I personally don't want him to have (look at the mess this pedophilia business has created for Rome)The atmosphere found in a monastic setting...where individuals are cloistered and can concentrate on unceasing prayer is perfect for the celibate, but I don't think it has served the church very well among those whose job it is to minister directly among the laity.

Christopher Lake

Curtis, I'm a 37-year-old single man who, for various reasons, may not ever marry. This might well put me, in a practical, everyday sense, in a similar category as the celibate priest. Does this mean that I am somehow unable to resist pedophilia? Of course not, and therefore, Curran's (and your) case falls apart. Sexual contact is a *desire*, not a need that must be fulfilled.

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