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Sunday, November 08, 2009

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Cowards hid behind anonymity. Why do sites let anonymous posters post? I know the answer is obvious, but it's also wrong.

What is the difference between posting under a fake name with a Yahoo email address and posting anonymously?


The person who posted the review was probably well meaning with an idealised picture of the Holy Family; some of those sugary holy pictures probably didn't help.

"What is the difference between posting under a fake name with a Yahoo email address and posting anonymously?"

None.

Although it is true that we are not committed to any specific view of the physiology of the birth of Christ, portraying Mary as undergoing labor pains is not without theological content.

The argument might run something like this: Labor pains are a specific punishment for original sin; but Mary was conceived without original sin; therefore, Mary would not have received the punishment for original sin. The general consensus of the Fathers, in addition to the almost unanimous agreement of later Doctors and theologians, supports this conclusion.

Showing Mary with labor pains could be seen as an attack on this dogma.

It would seem that the anonymous reviewer's description of the movie was a bit of an overreaction. Nonetheless, the points he raises should not be dismissed to casually simply on the basis that they have not been defined by the Church.

Christopher: You've summarized the argument nicely, and I certainly am not dismissive of it. Here, in my mind, is an interesting counter-argument: In cursing the Serpent, Adam, and Eve, God said:

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen. 3:17-19)

We know that Jesus toiled as a carpenter and that he surely sweated during many long days of labor. Does it then follow that he was being punished for the original sin brought upon mankind by the failure of Adam in the Garden? In addition, the author of Hebrews writes:

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him... (Heb. 5:7-9; see CCC 612)

Jesus experienced temptation, which wouldn't have existed without the Fall. He endured spiritual and emotional agony (Matt. 26:36-39, etc.), also results of the Fall and original sin. And he also had to learn obedience and be made perfect—despite being sinless and being God. And, of course, he died, which is the ultimate physical consequence of original sin. So, if Jesus—who was the sinless Son of God—experienced things that were the direct or indirect result of the Fall and original sin, why wouldn't Mary as well?

Since we're talking about the Virgin Birth, can I raise a question here? I have heard some serious-minded Catholics assert that Our Lady, because it was a Virgin Birth, categorically could not have had a vaginal delivery. Rather, Our Lord simply passed through her "like glass through a window." I find the entire idea very off-putting, and frankly, flirting with some one of the Christological heresies. (I can't remember-- which heresy claimed He was really God, but not really Man, just playing dress up?)

Interesting thoughts many places, but this one had me thinking: http://www.thesacredpage.com/2007/12/did-virgin-mary-experience-pains-of.html

I would like to compliment and complement Carl's post (11:39 am).

I haven't seen Joseph of Nazareth, but I have seen The Nativity Story.

Concerning the depiction of the birth of Jesus in The Nativity Story: I don't believe that it shows Mary experiencing pain at all.

It does show her laboring -- pushing hard to move Jesus through the birth canal. But that doesn't necessarily indicate pain. In contrast, earlier in the film, there is a scene of St. John the Baptist being born. Elizabeth is certainly portrayed as having much more "pain".

I have lifted weights in the past, sometimes very heavy weights. During the exertion to lift the bar, I had to grunt and strain; but, I wasn't hurting myself.

Carl,

There still appears to be only one review up at Amazon.com. Do they screen comments/reviews before posting them?

Kevin: Yes, the site says it usually takes 48 hours. I posted it on Friday, so I'm hoping it shows up soon.

"So, if Jesus—who was the sinless Son of God—experienced things that were the direct or indirect result of the Fall and original sin, why wouldn't Mary as well?" ... He did not have to experience these things; he freely entered into them, to redeem us (what is not assumed is not saved). Mary like Jesus was sinless and also did not have to experience those things, and didn’t because she did not have the role of redeemer; that is why Mary did not experience them as well.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that Mary, the Mother of God, was immaculately conceived, was born without sin, and remained sinless throughout her life.

I think people of good will can certainly disagree about how Joseph might have expressed, in words and actions, some of his bewilderment. But to assume, as "Customer" apparently does, that St. Joseph could not and would not express doubts and frustration is ridiculous..

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