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« No, uh, ark | Main | Tradition, Europe, and the Muslim world »

Friday, June 26, 2009

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Ed Peters

You know, there are plenty of writers I don't agree with, but there are some I just can't read. Michael Sean Winters is one.

Joe

Come on Carl. "The second piece of evidence that America is (at least sometimes) living on another planet..." You perpetuate the charade. America does not live on another planet, and by so saying you ignore the real issue; They live in a false Church. Who cares if Jesuits run it, it is still a heretical publication. Until we call spades spades, this stuff will go on. America, and the Jesuits as an organizational entity, have betrayed the truth. No matter how nice they are and how many soup kitchen they sponsor. Who can contest that? What does more damage, a Jew-hating schismatic bishop, or the Jesuit order's long separation from Biblical truth/ And which gets more press time? It really is rather phenomenal. We get uppity about a group of hyper-conservative German schimatics while USF goes lavender. America is a disgrace, fairly regularly. It epidimizes what is wrong with American Catholicism, while bankrolling cushy Jesuit salaries. I promise you Saint Ignatius in Heaven is not in disagreement. All the polite talk with Fr. James Martin and his happy Broadway efforts aside.

Carl E. Olson

You perpetuate the charade.

My turn: Come on Joe. Really? I don't think so.

Brad

You know, I'm pretty sure Catholics expend far more effort tearing each other down than anyone external to the organization.

Jack

Winters fails to note the major, and probably the only, reason why this pope is meeting with B. Obama, i.e., he is a head of state, and so is the pope, as the head of the Vatican city-state. This kind of "minor" detail somehow managed to elude Winters. America the magazine is virtually unreadable.

Dave Mueller

I read an article by Michael Sean Winters on the George/Kmiec "debate" and he so completely misrepresented it (as a victory for Kmiec!?!??!?!) that he is simply not worthy of being taken seriously.

o

I'm still trying to work out which parallel universe L'OR lives in.

Joseph Fromm

America magazine does not represent the width and breadth of thinking by the great men of the Society of Jesus. A clique of some like minded Jesuits eliminate the possibility of intellectual freedom that is so highly touted when defending the "Vagina Monologues", yet is never adhered to when ideas get outside the clique's bubble. The ten new Provincials are the board of directors of America, they are ultimately responsible for the content and editorial direction of America. I can only hope that the tradition of 100 years of great Catholic journalism at America magazine can once again represent the "American Catholic" experience. Would it not be wonderful to read Schall, Fessio, Mankowski and Pacwa in America?

Harrison Jones

I don't really see that there is anything worth arguing about in his article. The comparison he tries to make is so obviously unapplicable that I don't see that it is necessary to bother about it.

Robert Miller

Carl:

Wonderful post.

Jack and Joseph Fromm have it right, in my opinion.

I think Pius XI would have met with Hitler in the 1930s, if AH had cared to meet with him. But AH, unlike Obama, didn't believe he could schismatize the Catholic Church in Germany/Austria.

It seems obvious that, especially with his appointment of a "Catholic" theologian as his ambassador to the Vatican, BO has more audacious hopes than AH ever entertained.

Maybe, now that I think about it, some US bishops ought to have a quiet conversation with B16 about whether His Holiness ought to rescind the invitation -- wearing his Bishop of Rome hat, rather than his Sovereign of the Vatican State hat.

But then, who am I to ask? I just want to be a co-worker of the truth.

Ed Peters

good point joe. And McDermott, Baker, Conn, Muller, and so on.

harrison, right. it's just that some folks like MSW are sooooo over the edge that it's okay for us to affirm among ourselves, that we are not the crazy ones. that done, let's move on.

Harrison Jones

Haha I see. Consider it affirmed.

Joseph Fromm

I have a few further thoughts on the subject. America magazine seems to have painted itself into an idea corner. They have become something akin to The Village Voice of Catholic media. However, their historical place is a Catholic New York Times. Since they have such a stringent liberal editorial policy, they must maintain the status quo even if it leads them into Bishop bashing and Obama adulation. The priests of America magazine in maintaining this stringent liberalism in their editorial direction has diluted the moral authority of their priesthood. Maybe its time to move the headquarters out of Manhattan and relocate to somewhere like Spring Hill College, Alabama. They need the fresh perspective and we need a fresh America and the Society of Jesus could save a few bucks in rent in the process.

Dr John James

I dont think anyone would have minded if Notre Dame had met with Obama to engage in a debate or public dialogue about public policy in relation to the President's adminstration and the priniciples that underpin his decisions in relation to protecting the lives of those most vulnerable. Of course, he should be treated courteously.
But that is very different from conferring an honorary law degree on a President who has set about removing every legal protection for the lives of the unborn and standing and applauding while he tells you that he will set his course firmly in opposition to the infallible statements of the Ordinary Magisterium, which has stated again and again that abortion is a unique expression of moral decay, both in individuals and cultures.
It will be interesting to see the communique that is issued after the meeting with Benedict.

T. Shaw

My conclusion about "America" is that every word is encrypted.

Here's what their scribblings say, in plain English.

"Barack mounts His Throne to shouts of joy!
A blare of trumpets for The One!"

Jack


I have to further Dr. James's point. The whole ND controversy was never about BO speaking there; it was about giving him the sports equivalent of a trophy. That was what went over the line and everyone knew it. So, ND changed the subject to "dialogue" and "civility", etc. They could never defend giving him the trophy, any more than Hesburgh ever would have given Wallace a trophy in the 1960s. Heck, Hesburgh (that champion of "dialogue" when it means bringing Air Force One to ND), never would have thought of even inviting Wallace to speak. The hypocrisy of the situation reeks to high heaven. God is not mocked an this ongoing sophistry by Jesuit "elites" will be accounted for at some point.

Dan Deeny

If Michael Sean Winters wants to help out, he should volunteer to teach English at St. Aloysius Gonzaga High School in Nairobi. He can then transfer his writing and reading skills to students and write articles from Nairobi. His own writing will have more meaning, I think.

Dan

What has happened to the Jesuits, as represented by America's editorial posture, is sad but something that the Church has seen time and time again in the course of her history. Orders and movements come and go. The Church endures eternally. Still, it is sad to see such corruption of the Jesuits' great intellectual tradition.

Telemachus

Carl, I'm sorry this is so long. It's been a while, and I won't do it frequently.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...if we spend time in the trenches with him fighting for the rights of workers, the rights of immigrants, and the rights of citizens to health care, our testimony on behalf of the unborn will be more persuasive to this President..."

No... no, no, no... no. I'll elaborate:

(1) A part of me wishes that Pope Benedict XVI would write in his latest encyclical "Catholics are NOT Marxists, so stop talking like a bunch of Marxists, you ninnys!" I wouldn't mind if he followed it up with "Catholics aren't capitalists, either," because it's true. There is no "system" which would please God, only truth. The unrestricted market economy (and if you think you know what that means, think again) is the most moral and most just form of economic order, but it won't save us no matter how well maintained it is. No GOOD society functions without a virtuous, God-fearing people who are willing to work and help one another through mutual, voluntary support, and Pope Benedict has made this quite clear in his previous writings.

Yet, if forcing "universal health care" on all would cause the quality and availability of health care in the United States to decline severely, are we as Catholics supposed to support it because it's "nice" and because it "sounds Christian?" In contrast, if allowing unrestricted, voluntary market interactions would bring about an availability of affordable health care to everyone on some level -- but NOT on an equal level, mind you -- would we all be enjoined to fight against this because "markets are greedy" and "profit is un-Christian?"

(2) More importantly, what would "universal health care" look like as established by something like the Obama administration? Or by any administration, for that matter? I'll tell you: no medical establishment would be allowed to exist that did not make unrestricated abortion available and widely promoted. That would mean the death of the pro-life movement, period, at least publicly. We'd have to work covertly: one might as well be in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia at that point, and I'm not being merely polemical. These fools at America Magazine are shooting themselves in the foot if they think that they can somehow "bring about health justice" or whatever and then ask "Oh, by the way, do you think we can get rid of abortion now?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, it may sound wacky (it shouldn't), but civil authority has been THE enemy of the Church for much of human history since Christ. Islamic radicals are nothing compared to what was done by millenia of power-mad rulers within our own societies, democratically-elected or no. If you don't believe me, at least read "Triumph," available through Ignatius Press no less. Beyond that, there is so much documentary evidence, so much written history, so much intellectual thought, both secular and religious, that justifies allowing people to be free from violence and coercion, why should Catholics join with tyranny-minded narcissists in order to "immanentize the Eschaton?" Such are not the thoughts and actions of believers in Christ, but those of people controlled by fear of reality and resentment of the successful.

But I ramble on... just read Thomas E. Woods' fantastic "The Church and the Market," the last word as far as I'm concerned. There's a tradition of economic and civil liberty within the Catholic Church, and I hope it will be revived again soon, and not by the Church leadership, for that is not its role. Rather, we as laity must show that we can live in virtue AND liberty simultaneously. If we can't, then maybe we DO deserve slavery.

Um, yeah, I'll be back in another couple months, I guess. End the Fed.

Gabriel Austin

In his TROJAN HORSE IN THE CHURCH, D. v. Hildebrand described quite accurately the results of progressivism in the Church. And that he defined quite nicely as "change for the sake of change".
He noted the role of the Jesuit Fr. Teilhard's mechanical evolutionism which would lift us all up with no effort on our part.
I note that Fr. Teilhard believed in the fraudulent Piltdown Man, and the mysterious Peking Man.
It is a curiosity to attempt to understand what was it that infected and infested the Society of Jesus; that it turned in upon itself. .

Norah

That's Trojan Horse in the City Of God

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