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Friday, June 27, 2008

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LJ

"Growing up in secular middle-class America, I understood sex as something disconnected from the idea of creating life."

This is the same popular thought process that is at the root of social acceptance of 'same-sex marriage.' It is really only the Catholic Church that is the hold-out against it. That 1930 Lambeth conference has a lot to answer for, not just for Anglicanism but for virtually all of Protestantism and perhaps, in some measure for the course of even the secular west. That, of course, doesn't excuse us, as Father Pavone regularly reminds us.

Samuel Skinner

You know this would fall under fallacy of arguing from consequences... not to mention their are atheists who took the exact opposite approach?

The Soviet Union is always a fun example- they were atheists and they cracked down on "sinful" behavior and Cuba rounds up gay people as deviants. You don't have to be a theist to have these attitudes- it simply helps!

As for sex disconnected from creating life... reminds me of Italy. I hear you can't get married if you are infertile there. God, I love consistancy.

Dan

Samuel Skinner:

You might want to check some of your facts before taking potshots. None of your claims of purported inconsistency have any factual basis.

There is a strong tie between Christian culture and anti-abortion attitudes and, conversely, between abortion and secular attitudes, those of communists included. All communist countries legalized abortion, well before it was legalized in the West. The West legalized abortion beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s as secularist philosophies took greater hold of Western culture.

What you say about what you "heard" concerning Italy convinces me that you are an atheist. Why? Because of the famous quote attributed to Chesterton: the problem with those who do not believe in God is not that they believe in nothing, but that they will believe anything.

Telemachus

"I realized in that moment that perfectly good, well-meaning people—people like me—can support gravely evil things because of the power of lies."
Truth. Same thing goes for Germany under the Nazi-regime I suppose. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1105

I think one of the keenest insights of this article is the following: that once one has to accept the fundamental idea that human life begins at conception, the whole of Catholic sexual doctrine falls right into place. As the denial of this fundamental idea is not easily done without falling back onto ideological thinking, Catholic sexual doctrine becomes very hard to argue against.

-------------------------------------------------------

Samuel Skinner:

What are you referring to when you say "You know this would fall under fallacy of arguing from consequences"? The whole article? The article as a whole is arguing that once you set aside "sexual liberation," one can't help but come to conclusions that discredit this ideology on the grounds of more fundamental understandings of the human person.

And that there were / are atheists that are against abortion... well, I'll leave the proof of that in your court. One look at the writings of, say, Daniel Dennett makes it pretty clear that atheism *logically* (and therefore universally) leads to absolutist materialism and the re-animalization of the human being. But even if you're right, there have been professed Catholics that did and believed terrible things despite Catholic teaching, but that didn't make their viewpoints "Catholic."

As for the rest of your post, I don't know what point you are trying to make except "You don't have to be Christian to be a 'good person.'" Well, I certainly hear that a lot, and used to think so too, but the understanding I have is that the remaining morality of Western civilization is simply vestigial at best. "Good people" aren't going to exist very much longer, and the remaining "goodness" of statist-charity and the like is just inertia from the Christian Era.

Well, let's just make laws to keep people from being "bad" then, right? Laws based on "what we can all agree on"? Fine. When an atheist writes a book or founds a movement that promotes the *absolute* sanctity of human life, I will gladly support him / her. I have no problem with atheists; what I have a problem with are anti-theist misanthropes who wish to disguise their ideologies as "science" to justify the mass slaughter of human beings. I'm not saying you *are* one of these people, but that's usually what we Catholics are talking about when we denounce national-socialism, communism, and all the other secular "-isms" out there that have done humanity so much harm.

Ed Peters

Skinner wrote: "... reminds me of Italy. I hear you can't get married if you are infertile there."

You heard wrong. 1983 CIC 1084.3

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