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Saturday, April 05, 2008

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Subvet

"...It has captured imaginations for eons, and will continue to because it can’t be proven or disproven."

Using that line of thinking I can claim there's a nine foot wide chocolate cake with my name on it sitting on the far side of the moon. Can't be proven or disproven, right?

Augustine II

Trash sells. The advertisers who sign on must be spurned.

Cristina A. Montes

I'm amused at how they praise "The Last Templar" and TDVC because they're "thought provoking". Huh? These guys need "The Last Templar" and TDVC to provoke them to think? It's as if "The Last Templar" and TDVC are the first thought-provoking books these guys have encountered. Or are they equating "thinking" with "questioning or attacking Catholicism"?


Little Gidding

Of course, it *can* be disproven, if you're prepared to actually accept empirical evidence and prepared to admit that it *does* make claims of historical fact. The DVC and its "clones," as Carl calls them here, work very much like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," which, of course, is also very "thought provoking." Will NBC next produce a mini-series production of "The Protocols" and justify itself by pointing to its being "just fiction" ("on one level"), but also "exploring" important and "thought provoking" issues of "historic fact versus faith" ("on another level")?

Thomas

I've heard vehement defenses of the Davinci Code and similiar tripe from my own family members along the same "it's just fiction, Torquemada" lines.

Here's a simple thought-experiment:

You are a self-professed Catholic and a weekly communicant, and somebody writes a wildly successful novel about your own mother. It uses her name and places her "character" in her real-life circumstances (ie. hometown, profession, names of relatives, etc.) In other words, there is no question of mistaken identity; this character IS your mother.

But upon reading the novel you discover that the author has also made your mother out to be a drug abuser and an adulterous whore.

Tell me, cousin, would you simply defend the book as mere fiction to be enjoyed?

Of course you wouldn't. You'd be (rightfully) enraged and motivated to seek this author out and string him up.

Would that you had such love for Our Lord Jesus Christ, the One you should love above all others. Even mom.

LJ

"But the proliferation of these additional anti-Catholic novels proves an ancient adage: there is money to be made in appealing to visceral anti-Catholicism."

It is indeed visceral. I have encountered people who were otherwise intelligent, objective, highly moral and often quite in love with Jesus Christ. Yet they lose their minds over the Catholic Church.

Cajun Nick Jagneaux

In additon to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, maybe NBC (and their ilk) might like take a stab (oops, bad expression) at The Satanic Verses.

But probably not. That story's just not worth trying to find out whether or not it would "cause too much outrage amongst [Islamists] who can’t comprehend that fiction can be fun, and that it sometimes it is just fiction, not anything else."

Robert Miller

These days, Catholics don't practice an apologetics for Christendom -- i.e., the Catholic "public thing" as it exists, most unmistakably in the Middle Ages.

Because we don't promote the thirteenth as the "greatest of centuries", we are unable to answer the scurrilous deprecation of the thousand years during which Christendom gave visible and potent public expression to Catholic faith. Our Crusades were armed pilgrimages far more noble than any war America has ever fought. Our Inquisition was a tribunal of truth whose nobility eclipses America's blood-stained "independent judiciary". Our great intellectuals -- St. Augustine, St. Bonaventure and St. Thomas -- put all of the West's post-thirteenth shamans to flight.

We -- who have Innocent III, Boniface VIII, Pius IX and Benedict XVI guiding us -- need have no fear of any infidel.

But this is not a call to a new integrism. Integrism believes that the Catholic public thing can be only in worldly triumph. That, we now see, was only for the thousand years. Now it lives in humility and suffering, but it can live in humility and suffering only if it remembers its great kings and prophets -- much as the royal house of David lived in humility and suffering at the time when Jesus came.

We can best overcome the attacks on our Catholic Tradition and the heritage of Christendom with a vigorous apologetic for Christendom.

Vince

Let's go easy on the triumphalism, Robert. I understand the natural reaction to the skewed or incorrect presentation of the Crusades or the Inquisition that Catholics must frequently deal with, but your depiction there swings rather excessively in the opposite direction.

While at times more legally rigorous than other contemporary judicial bodies, the Inquisition was still responsible for the deaths of over five thousand individuals. Though not the hundreds of thousands or millions claimed by Dan Brown and others, that is still five thousand too many. On top of that, the Inquisition at times fed off of and furthered racist notions (like purity of blood). "Noble" might be pushing it here.

As one who has studied the Crusades at length, I can attest to the many myths and misconceptions about these conflicts (i.e. they were mainly about money or that they were wars of conversion). However, in discounting this nonsense, one shouldn't whitewash the times that atrocities or less than honorable acts did occur. The Second World War - in spite of some shameful deeds by the allies - was far more "noble" and justifiable than most crusades. I think upon reflection most would agree that the defeat of totalitarian mass-murderers should be more highly lauded than the slaughter at Constantinople of fellow Christians during the Fourth Crusade.

Apologetics is about knowing/presenting the truth, and historical truth is often one of many complexities not easy absolutes. I recommend the works of Henry Kamen and Thomas Madden on the Inquisition and the Crusades respectively over the much more simplistic presentations put forward in certain TRIUMPH-alistic books.

Augustine II

Robert, I like your words. I like them very much - "triumphalism" and all. Any recommended reading?

brendon

While at times more legally rigorous than other contemporary judicial bodies, the Inquisition was still responsible for the deaths of over five thousand individuals. Though not the hundreds of thousands or millions claimed by Dan Brown and others, that is still five thousand too many.

It would only be five thousand deaths too many if the death penalty was unjustly applied in every case. But to demonstrate that this is the case would require either 1) an examination of the historical evidence for each case, followed by applying true philosophical and theological moral principles to said evidence and determining each case to be decided unjustly; or 2) proof that the foundational principles of inquisitorial courts are contrary to true philosophical and theological moral principles. Only by demonstrating that inquisitorial courts either never achieved justice in practice or were unjust in principle could one make such a broad and sweeping statement.

Vin

All I can say is that I can't tell you how lucky I feel to have been given the blessing of being born into the Catholic faith. In light of all the heresy that is still so prevalent in this day and age, my faith is a buffer as well the reason I have so much certainty that the truth is indeed in the Catholic Church. Else why do so many hate it so much? Christ also was maligned to His death but promised the Church he started could not be prevailed against by all the evil which abides on earth. I believe Him.

joseph

Blessed are you, when you are persecuted for my name sake, for you will inherit the kingdom of Heaven....Blessed are you when man speaks all kinds of evil against you for knowing me, for yours is the kingdom of God.. Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dan

So, to whom do we write to express our displeasure and our willingness to let sponsors know that we'll have nothing to do with their products?

Jeanne

Sigh, if these crazy people don't believe in the true faith, then why are they threatened?

Why go through all that for sucking up?

Just a thought.

Sandra Miesel

I second the recommendations for Henry Kamen and Thomas Madden above. But stay away from William Thomas Walsh and HW Crocker.

It's worth remembering that there was no such thing as THE Inquisition. There were diocesan court that used an inquisitional process, itinerant papal inquisitors, and finally the Spanish, Portuguese, and Roman Inquisitions with their foreign branches.Some good historians to look for are William Monter, Gustav Hemmingsen, Guido Ruggiero, and (not our) Edward Peters.

Yes, the Mediterranean Inquisitions were less lethal than secular justice in their areas. This hardly makes them "noble." The Spanish Inquisition and its Portuguese sister were established on the false premise that there was a dangerous secret network of insincerely converted Jews in those realms. They went on to seek out heretics, false Moorish converts, and moral offenders. (So who wants to demonstrate that sodomizing a donkey is properly a capital offense?) The worst injustices of the Inquisitions were witchcraft persecutions by diocesan courts and roving inquisitors, often accompanied by hideous tortures that the Mediterranean Inquisitions did not use.

Many actual cases have been studied and existing records tabulated. The most famous case to be examined and reversed was, of course, the trial of Joan of Arc, who was sentenced by a diocesan court. Discussions of these issues must be founded on documentary evidence and not pro or anti-Catholic bias.

Augustine II

How about Régine Pernoud?

Vince C

"While at times more legally rigorous than other contemporary judicial bodies, the Inquisition was still responsible for the deaths of over five thousand individuals. Though not the hundreds of thousands or millions claimed by Dan Brown and others, that is still five thousand too many."

The issue is not the numbers, but whether the deaths were justified under the laws of the time and place.

The Inquistion in it's active period in one form or another extended over the course of about 500 years. Doing some rough calculations in the approximately 235 years of America's history, there have been around 7700 executions. Unless you are against all capital punishment in priciple, this adds a little perspective and humilty.

Thomas

What the hell is wrong with Harry Crocker's TRIUMPH: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church?

It's critical where criticism is due, confrontational when it comes to lies and myths, and damn funny to boot.

Augustine II

These people don't seem to have a problem with Crocker's book:

"Mr.Crocker's book is engaging, provocative, and eminently readable. It should be around for Vatican III."

—William F. Buckley Jr.

"Harry Crocker propels us through two millennia with wit and insight. While irreverent to man, his reverence to God is never questioned in a must-read for non-Catholics as well as Catholics."

—Robert D. Novak

"Harry Crocker has written the best short history of the Church in English since the Second Vatican Council. In short, a Triumph."

—Fr. C. J. McCloskey III

"H. W. Crocker III has indeed brought about a triumph with his concise and informative history. Here is a book for the general reader that provides a grand view of the Church's progress through time. Triumph is a book that will strengthen the faith of Catholics and give others an exciting and complete account of the two millennia of the Catholic Church. Magnificent!"

—Ralph McInerny

"A biting, unaplolgetic romp through Catholic history that debunks some long held myths and celebrates the glory of the Catholic faith. A much needed Triumph."

—Raymond Arroyo

monica

Here we go again. Definitely, Catholicism must be then the true faith for people obsessively try to mock and discredit one way or the other. No wonder that Jesus said to Peter that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church. Of all kind of topics it has to be something geared toward our faith for it to sell big and generate a lot of money. The truth will set us free when our Lord returns. In the meantime, pray for those who try to twist it and get away with it pretending it is all fiction. Lord have mercy on us all.

Pam Nicholson

Of course they would play God by putting trash like this on TV, particularly the atheistic, freemasonic channel known as NBC (nobody cares channel). It is utter nonsense to accept the fact that this is being put on TV as entertainment, when we know full well that this is another mockery of the True Christian faith of Jesus Christ by the masonic cult of Hollywood. God already has won the war but not the war on common sense, the true war that God is real and He will not allow His Church to be destroyed by hopeful fools who seek to mock Christ yet again. I will be no longer watching NBC and intend to boycott all their sponsors, and I hope others will do the same. If this were about all the muslim atrocities that have gone on throughout the centuries against christianity by mo..., the fallout would be tremendous. Easy to mock what one does not understand nor believe. Christ knows what is going on and He did prior to His Crucifixion by the Chosen people who distorted even back then what is known as judaism. Poor jews and muslims, I pray for their conversion to the truth, because they will find it if they ask for it.

Pam Nicholson

Of course they would play God by putting trash like this on TV, particularly the atheistic, freemasonic channel known as NBC (nobody cares channel). It is utter nonsense to accept the fact that this is being put on TV as entertainment, when we know full well that this is another mockery of the True Christian faith of Jesus Christ by the masonic cult of Hollywood. God already has won the war but not the war on common sense, the true war that God is real and He will not allow His Church to be destroyed by hopeful fools who seek to mock Christ yet again. I will be no longer watching NBC and intend to boycott all their sponsors, and I hope others will do the same. If this were about all the muslim atrocities that have gone on throughout the centuries against christianity by mo..., the fallout would be tremendous. Easy to mock what one does not understand nor believe. Christ knows what is going on and He did prior to His Crucifixion by the Chosen people who distorted even back then what is known as judaism. Poor jews and muslims, I pray for their conversion to the truth, because they will find it if they ask for it.

Joseph J. Wagner

I don't like what I'm hearing about the anti catholic film that NBC will be presenting. I can assure you if it is as bad as I think it will be, NBC will be off my screen even if they carry the Olympics or the World Series.

Joe Wagner

Joseph J. Wagner

I don't like what I'm hearing about the anti catholic film that NBC will be presenting. I can assure you if it is as bad as I think it will be, NBC will be off my screen even if they carry the Olympics or the World Series.

Joe Wagner

Phyllis

I believe NBC has had an agenda for years to discredit the Catholic faith. They haven't got a creative bone or idea in their collective bodies unless it is to disparage the Catholics and their beliefs.
Thankfully I can turn them off and find other means of entertainment and not support their sponsors who have hidden agendas also.
Of course they will defend their attempt at entertainment otherwise they would have to admit that it is usually just pure, ugly, garbage they have been throwing at us for years. Just think of the money these people make for subjecting us to this type of programming while many in the viewing audience are struggling to just make ends meet

Augustine II

NBC should have been off all of our screens long, long ago. Same goes for CBS, ABC, Fox and all the rest.

Hattie

If the same "expose" were done on the Jewish Community and its sordid history with money lending and financial control of many countries, you can be assured that the series would never see light, or at best, the creators would lose their jobs and the ACLU would be the first to demand apologies if not the total disavowing of the production for all media producers. If the Catholic Church is so corrupt and filled with lies, why do these "seekers of myopic truth and senationalsm" only go after the Roman Church? Because they know that hidden below the layers of history, abuse and dishonesty, there still exists the truth of the person of Jesus Christ and that will always confront the pervayers of dishonesty!

r

A real hoax of a story is how the modernists sacked and pillaged the faith at Vatican II. Young punk prelates razed the faith back in '65 with the Lord's permission, but only for a time. Remember Vat II is just a test of faith. In the end St. Pius X will resurrect, and the banner of Sacred Tradition will prevail.

Sandra Miesel

Regine Pernoud is excellent on Joan of Arc. I haven't read her defense of the Middle Ages which was an argument against the way medieval history was taught in France in the 1970s.

Crocker is a polemicist, not a historian. I prefer to get my history from actual historians such as the ones I mentioned. (If you want primary source funny stories about an Inquisition, try Guido Ruggiero's BINDING PASSIONS, realting several Venetian cases.

RCM

As one former atheist I knew stated: "Take down the Catholic Church and Christianity will no longer have an effective influence on the world as Christianity will disintergrate into thousands of ineffectual squabling factions."

Augustine II

Warren H. Carroll's History of Christendom volumes are good?

MMajor Fan

I'd like to give them shovels, a Zodiac rubber digny, and tell them that there are "big secrets of the Templars" buried underneath the Titanic. *crosses fingers, hoping they will take the hint*

pat p

Can you imagine if NBC made a miniseries bashing any other religion? Does anyone have the pertinent addresses at NBC? I think we should drop them a line and let them now what we think!
Pat P

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