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Thursday, February 09, 2006

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» The Da Vinci Challenge from CatholicSphere
I saw this Catholic News Agency story on "The Da Vinci Challenge". Apparently, Sony Pictures, ahead of the May 19 release of "The Da Vinci Code" movie has created a website to host essays from DVC critics/experts. But, noticable was the lack of Catho... [Read More]

Comments

Amy

Carl, you really have to wonder why either of us were contacted. I would have said "no", but it still strikes me as odd.

Carl Olson

Amy, I agree — and not just because of my wounded ego. Both of our books have received mention in major media and have to be known to the folks running the DaVinciChallange.com site. Very frustrating -- and perhaps very revealing as well.

Matt

I don't interpret the comments by either of you as "sour grapes", but as a glaring omission that calls into question the sincerity of the project.

A question ... how is this being promoted to the public (or has there even been a sort of awareness made of the site)?

What does any of this site's goal matter, if the majority of the movie-going or book-reading public is ignorant of its existence?

Carl Olson

What does any of this site's goal matter, if the majority of the movie-going or book-reading public is ignorant of its existence?

A most excellent question, Matt! Could the DaVinciChalleng.com site be nothing more than a cyber-placebo? It has gotten publicity in the NYTimes, which is no small deal. Something to watch as May 19th draws nigh.

Jackson

I heard an advertisement for the site today on a major secular radio station here in Los Angeles.

Brian John Schuettler

Carl,

Your ego should not, in deed, be wounded. Quite the contrary, it is the very fact that in your book you brilliantly answered the seudo-history of TDC and it's neo-gnostic mythology that you were not contacted by Sony. This is a site run by Sony marketers to promote nothing but positive interest in the movie. That is what marketing agents get paid for. If you were allowed to write an essay it would defeat their purpose and, in fact, make the readers of the site think about the truth of the matter. In essence, they are afraid of you because they are afraid of the truth. You and Amy should be honored by your exception.

Furor

Perhaps this is some sort of plot a la Chesterton's The Man Who Was Thursday? Sony (Sunday?) orchestrates circumstances so that critics of the film spend their time attacking each other rather than the film itself. And so forth.

Maybe I'm giving Sony too much credit.

Sandra Miesel

I don't like the idea of playing in Sony's ballpark because it puts Brown and his debunkers at the same level with the readers asked to "choose" between them. Jewish scholar Deborah Lipstadt famously doesn't debate Holocaust deniers lest she lend them credibility by acknowledging them as opponents. I think we should do likewise.

El Perro Patron

What I really want to know is why Carl Olson and some of the rest of you are so obsessed with whining about a fictional book? Is this some kind of delusional paranoia, or is there actually a buck to made by convincing scores of people that they and their faith are somehow being victimized by a novel. Of course there is! Looks like Carl himself has written a book that attempts to cash in on Dan Brown's phenomenal success. Tell us Carl, how many pieces of silver have you made from your screed that purports to "debunk" a fictional novel.

To the rest of you, don't be fooled by this charlatan. You are not being victimized by a novel. Your faith, your church and your god are in no danger from Dan Brown or any other fiction writer. We're talking about a 2000 year old institution that is one of the most powerful in the world with one of the largest memberships in history. How is it that you are being victimized? I can understand that the Church as upset and felt victimized when Science debunked many of its beliefs, but a book of fiction? Please.

jpe

Yall sound like marxists circa 1986. That's a good thing, mind you.

Carl Olson

"Whining," "delusional paranoia," and "charlatan." Whew, you've really got a way with words! LOL. If there is any type of intelligent argument or point being made in your rant, El Perro Patron, I don't see it. Anyhow, a few months ago I wrote an article that specifically addresses the sort of bigoted and unhinged comments that folks like yourself are making. Read it here:

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/colson_justfiction1_mar05.asp

As for "cashing in," let's just say that what I'll make from our book is about .00000000000000001% of the reported $200 million plus that Dan Brown has made from his mediocre and very anti-Catholic novel. THAT is cashing in.

El Perro Patron

Yep, Brown made a lot of money off a very entertaining and original novel that millions of people obviously enjoy.

You are just another malcontent that is trying to cash in on Brown's success by taking advantage of those who feel that they are somehow victimized by a fictional novel. Sure, you're free to make a living by taking advantage of people's fears and delusions. That's America. But I challenge you to show how a book of fiction can in any way harm your church or its members.

Its just sad and pathetic how much mileage you cretins can get out of claiming victimhood by a novel. You're just as bad as the tent and television evangelists that make their living soaking the gullible.

Carl Olson

I'll ignore your infantile name-calling and simply point out the obvious: lots of people, both Christian and non-Christian, have questions about the many historical and theological claims made in Dan Brown's novel. Our book examines those claims -- not out of fear, but out of a desire for the truth to be known. You keep saying that I am playing the "victimhood" card, which only tells me you've never even opened our book.

The real parallel to televangelists can be found in the various "documentaries" and primetime specials from NBC, ABC, and other networks who pretend to offer facts and research, but merely repeat the many falsehoods found in The Da Vinci Code. And for what reason? To make money. Period.

If you are going to make wild and rude comments about my work, then I hope you have the integrity to also bash the authors of the many pro-Da Vinci Code books, such as Dan Bernstein, editor of Secrets of the Code, which has reportedly sold around 400,000 copies -- far more than our book has sold. So how about it, El Biggo Moutho? Are you going to contact Mr. Bernstein and call him names and bash him for "cashing in"? Or could it be that you are simply yet another enraged, unhinged anti-Catholic bigot?

Finally, it apparently hasn't occurred to you that Dan Brown (and his publisher and Sony and Ron Howard and Tom Hanks and...) is making a ton of money by skewing and attacking a story -- the life of Jesus Christ -- that is very important and sacred to billions of people. In addition, he plays on the irrational fears that many people have about the "power" of the Catholic Church. Just like Dan Brown, you have it all wrong. And, just like Brown, you probably have no interest in admitting so.

Cristina A. Montes

What's wrong about pointing out what's wrong in a bestseller? I've read the book by Sandra and Carl and it's not just about the Catholic Church being victimized; it's about the misrepresentation of facts. If some best-selling writer deludes millions into believing that a horse is a cow, why shouldn't an expert on the matter inform the public that no, a horse is not a cow?

I love both Star WArs and amateur astronomy. Sometimes my friends in our local astronomical society point out scenes in Star WArs that could not have happened in real life because there's no sound in space, asteroids in real life are so far apart that weaving in and out of an asteroid belt is not as perilous as the movie makes it seem, etc. I could easily accuse them of being paranoid about a work of fiction, but I don't.

El Perro Patron

You want to pretend this isn't about cashing in the paranoia and victimology of the majority? Fine. That's your perogative. If you claim that you're doing this to somehow benefit mankind and/or your church, ok, then how about you donate 100% of the proceeds of your book to your church, or to some charity? Better yet, donate you book proceeds to an organization that is working to help the boys who have been molested by priests. Or is that another myth you'd like to debunk?

As long as you try to claim that you're doing something good by "debunking" a book of fiction, I'll continue to do some good by debunking the motivations of those who want to pretend that a fictional novel is somehow a threat to anyone but the clinically paranoid.

El Perro Patron

Cristina,

As soon as one of your friends writes a book trying to make money by "debunking" Star Wars while acting as though the films are somehow a threat to real astronomy, then I'll join you in denouncing them as paranoid as well.

Carl Olson

Christina's comparison doesn't match up well with the The Coded Craziness because there aren't many (if any) folks out there using the "science" of "Star Wars" to inform themselves about scientific theories and facts. But there are many, many fans of The Da Vinci Code who are taking its claims about historical persons, places, and events as well-researched, undeniable fact. All you have to do is read online reviews or book reviews in major newspapers — how about the Chicago Tribune's breathless assertion that the novel "transmits several doctorates' worth of fascinating history and learned speculation…"? Here is just one of numerous possible examples written by a "Top 100 Reviewer" on Amazon.com:

Once I began this extraordinary book, I could not put it down. The Da Vinci Code is so much more than a gripping suspense thriller. Dan Brown takes us beyond the main plot and leads us on a quest for the Holy Grail – a Grail totally unlike anything we have been taught to believe. With his impeccable research, Mr. Brown introduces us to aspects and interpretations of Western history and Christianity that I, for one, had never known existed . . . or even thought about. I found myself, unwillingly, leaving the novel, and time and time again, going online to research Brown's research–only to find a new world of historic possibilities opening up for me. And my quest for knowledge and the answers to questions that the book poses, paralleled, in a sense, the quest of the book's main characters.

Then there is Dan Brown himself, who in a 2004 interview for a National Geographic Channel documentary, "Unlocking Da Vinci's Code: The Full Story", stated. "I began as a skeptic. As I started researching The Da Vinci Code, I really thought I would disprove a lot of this theory about Mary Magdalene and holy blood and all of that. I became a believer." Add to that Brown's many statements in other interviews about his total belief in the "facts" found in his novel, not to mention the "FACT" page that is found at the start of the book.

El Jerko Patron creates a straw man — that is, he is lying — with his continued insistence that I am scaring people into thinking they are "victims" of Brown's novel. No, my co-author and I have simply written a book that explains what Brown gets right (very little) and what he gets wrong (a lot), based on reputable scholarship (much of it non-Christian) and common sense. His statement — "Better yet, donate you book proceeds to an organization that is working to help the boys who have been molested by priests. Or is that another myth you'd like to debunk?" — reveals clearly what he is: an arrogant, bigoted jerk. Which explains very well why he is so angry that Catholics would actually have the gall to call a spade a spade.

Cristina A. Montes

First of all, I've never denounced my friends as "paranoid". I myself mention the scientific errors in "Star Wars" in casual conversations, and I definitely wouldn't want to denounce myself as "paranoid." ANd such a book has already been written, though not by one of my friends and not about "Star WArs" exclusively.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471409766/102-8528592-1368138?v=glance&n=283155

Also check out the author's website:
www.badastronomy.com

Anyway, to get back to the topic, if the Sandra and Carl and the rest were motivated by a desire to piggyback on Dan Brown's success, they wouldn't risk being unpopular by debunking the errors in his super-mega-bestseller. I would think a book praising a super-mega-bestseller would sell more than a book attacking it.

And about debunking motives: how do you plan to go about it? By citing authorities, the way Sandra and Carl have done in their book? :D

Romani12

I got a good laugh when I saw them spell "challenge" wrong on their own website! hahaha~!

What a joke that website is. Carl you are exactly right:

"Could it be possible that this mainly Protestant-driven enterprise is perfectly happy to point people towards The Da Vinci Code because, in fact, it is the "Catholic Church" that is constantly besmirched, by name? In encouraging (or at least not discouraging) people to see the film, they are reinforcing bad vibes around the word "Catholic," then are happy to "correct" the film by directing them to their own resources, produced by their own denominations?"

I hate to disespect nuns, but this Sister Rose is not who I want representing me. I am sure they picked her on purpose... just to say "we have a Catholic expert"... yeah, right.

Romani12

Cristina Montes -

You keep repeating "this is fiction!" as if we do not know. Of course we know. But the problem with a historical fiction novel is when the historical context is made to be fiction too. Most readers blindly believe it is true (especially when the author says so in the preface!)

Here is an email I wrote to a friend the other day, on this very subject:
The average fiction reader has learned how to apply "suspension of disbelief" to the fiction stories he reads. In other words, he knows that the people and events are entirely made up, but in order to "get into" the story, he must suspend his disbelief and act as if they were real. The same holds true for watching almost any good movie. There was no such person as Rocky Balboa, but millions cried and rejoiced over his life as depicted on the bigscreen.

Now, when it comes to historical fiction, the average person will not employ suspension of disbelief to the historical context. There is usually no reason to. In Huck Finn, we know that the US allowed slavery in the early to mid 19th century, and that people lived and talked just like Huck did, and that there really is a Mississippi River and people used to travel down it on all sorts of boats and rafts. In any historical fiction novel, it is assumed that the historical context (events, battles, famous people and their actions, politcs, wars, etc) are real. It is just the principal characters who are imaginary, but the story is believable because they could have existed. In a fictional story about the Revolutionary War, the background details of Paul Revere's "The redcoats are coming!" or Washington's crossing of the Delaware, or Benedict Arnold's treason are taken as fact. The only fictional story in which one must entirely suspend their disbelief would be fantasy or science fiction tales like the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. Likewise, in a historical fiction story, a reader would only want to suspend his disbelief regarding the historical context if in the story he read things such as Lincoln's Ithaca Address, or Washington's battle with Darth Vader. Unless obvious falsehoods pop out, there will be no reason for the reader not to believe that the historical context is true. In the case of the DaVinci code, Brown constructs an imaginary history of conspiracy to suppress religious truths that the average person may not know is false.

Dan Brown deceives the reader by outright saying that the historical context of his book is fact. It is not. His statements about Jesus Christ, Mary Magdalene, the Catholic Church, the Priory of Sion, the Knights Templar, Opus Dei, Emperor Constantine and Leonardo DaVinci are either outright fabrications or extreme stretches of the truth. He may get names, dates and places right, and he may get them wrong (as in the Priory of Sion). He has attributed false motives derived from Gnostic revisionist history and portrayed it as the factual, historical context in which his fictional characters act.

For the reader without a good knowledge of early Christian history, of the Gospels, of the Crusades, of Renaissance art - there is no reason not to believe Brown. Why would his historical context be any less true than Twain's in Huck Finn? So disbelief is not suspended and readers swallow the historical context as fact, when indeed it is just as fictional as the characters in the story.

That is why the book is dangerous.

Bill O'Shea

Carl, please ignore the doubters/haters/bigots. Your (and Sandra's) work is an indispensable tool to combat the joke that is TDC. As a well-educated Catholic, even I had trouble addressing the broad range of falsehoods that Brown proffered as "FACT." Your book collected all the relevant counterfacts in one place and gave me the ammunition to fight back against all the daVinci believers.

Thank you and keep up the good work!

Carl Olson

Thanks, Bill, for the comment. Your short remark sums up very well the challenge for many readers: wading through a endless sea of information, trying to figure out the facts about a host of different topics. One of the rewards of co-authoring THE DA VINCI HOAX was learning so much more about the Catholic Faith, Church history, and a number of other topics. My responses here to "El Perro Patron" really aren't for his benefit, since I know he's not interested in really listening, but for other readers who might benefit in some small way from such exchanges, however unpleasant they might be.

chikkensoup

I read the book. Its a novel...not a historical book. Unfortunately many people will believe that it is true....thats what makes me feel bad about this whole affair. Im sure many who view the movie will also believe what they see...and that is unfortunate. More will see the movie than read the book....
Ok Christians, start your homework, and get ready for some battles for the faith... Oh, by the way, I am Chistian, and not anti catholic. We are all in this together...defending the faith.

El Perro Patron

Looks like preaching to the choir is what this thread and your book are all about. Fine, keep jousting your windmills and basking in the adoration of your fellow travelers. Those of us in the reality Based Community will continue to be amazed and amused at those of you who somehow feel that it is a worthwhile endeavor to try to "save" one of history's most powerful organizations from a novel.

El Perro Patron


"The book is dangerous?"

LOL! That's just the kind of delusional paranoia I was referring to. Thanks for making my point for me, Romani12. You've joined an illustrious band of people who have feared and tried to suppress literature throughout the ages.

Tell you what, why not arrange a friendly little book burning? I'll show up and bring the graham crackers and chocolate bars. We'll make s'mores.

While we're at it, why not throw a few witches and/or heretics on the barby just for giggles?

Carl Olson

Hmmm...I really wonder who is more hysterical, out of touch with reality, and paranoid: Catholics offering a sober, scholarly critique of a significant cultural phenomenon by writing a book, or a Catholic-bashing ranter who equates Catholics writing books (horror of horrors!) with book burnings and witch burnings. And thank you, EPP, for reinforcing my point. Much appreciated.

denise martin

Yeh, I'm already buckled in for the wild ride the next few months will bring...my anti-Catholic bookclub is salivating in anticipation of the movie. Of course they deny it, after all "it's just a book." I remind them that Uncle Tom's Cabin was "just a book," but it helped spark the Civil War, Mein Kampf was "just a book," but it got Hitler plenty of attention. The Bible too is "just a book..."

Books contain ideas, whether factual or fictional. My worry is that the non-academic average reader ("...look, it has to be true, it's got footnotes!...") will know that Da Vinci is fictional, but if pressed to separate the fiction from the fact....that is where the lack of scholarship will surface. The honest among them will research, but most will go away from the movie, vaguely uneasy but not hungry enought to get to the truth.

One wonders...will Evangelical churches host previews? take busloads to opening night? Will Christians recognize that what hurts the Catholic Church, hurts us all? Will Christians recognize the need for solidarity? I am struck that Islamists will riot, burn and threaten over a set of cartoons...they should walk awhile in the moccasins of a Roman Catholic....

Cristina A. Montes

Romani: I've read you're post and I know you're on our side, but just to clarify: I'm not the one who keeps on repeating "This is fiction." My point exactly is that there's nothing wrong with critiquing a work that's "just fiction" and I used the "Star WArs" debunkers as an example. (Unfortunately, as Carl rightly pointed out, the scientific errors of "STar WArs" aren't as harmless as those in TDVC.) But it's ok; with the format of the comments section, even I have a hard time identifying who said what.

I really wonder why EPP is so afraid of a few level-headed scholars. I mean, if his favorite novel does tell the truth, why should he feel it's being threatened by a few scholarly debunkers?

He equates writing books critiquing other books with burning books. We're not interested in burning books or suppressing ideas. Freedom of expression is a two-way street. Dan Brown et. al.can write as much as they want, but we should also be allowed to air out our side.

Oh, and by the way, EPP talks about "debunking motives". You don't debunk motives; you debunk myths and you expose motives. Sorry, getting nitpicky...anyway, this is discussion is exciting...like a wild chase through an asteroid field...oops, sorry, I forgot, that's just fiction. :D


Carl Olson

Nice comments, Cristina. As I often say, "I have no interest in censoring Dan Brown, and I have no interest in censoring my criticisms of his novels and ideas." And, as his interviews consistently indicate, he does believe in the ideas found in TDVC. As for burning books, I'm loath to do so, especially since I collect anti-Catholic books and literature. After all, you cannot fairly and accurately expose falsehood unless you fairly present those falsehoods as they have been uttered, printed, and produced.

Cristina A. Montes

Furthermore, I wonder what EPP will think if, based on his comments on this blog, we will conclude that he and his kind burn copies of "The Da Vinci Hoax"?

Oh, and by the way, I think Romani made an excellent point about the lower level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to historical fiction. Actually, I've read somewhere that J.R.R. Tolkien does not believe in suspension of disbelief even when it comes to fantasy, but I'm digressing again.

El Perro Patron

Actually I'd love to read Carl's book trying to "debunk" a book of fiction.

Unfortunately, I have an ethical dilemma. I have a very strict policy of not giving my money to someone I find morally repugnant.

So if someone has a copy that they'd care to loan me...

El Perro Patron

Actually, Carl, the book burning coment was directed Romani12 and his hysterical "The book is dangerous" comment. I don't accuse you or Cristina of wanting to burn or ban anything. Romani12, on the other hand, seems like the kind of target reader for your type of paranoia who would like to take things a step further.

I would never want to burn yours or any other book. I think that ridiculing it and questioning your motives for writing it are quite enough.

I am really looking forward to the film's release. Partially because I think it wll be a great movie (Hanks, Howard and Grazer... You can't go wrong) Buat also because I know that its going to bring the nutbars out of the woodwork to protest and try to debunk it. Should be very entertaining. Even more fun than when Kevin Smith released Dogma.

Carl Olson

I think that ridiculing it and questioning your motives for writing it are quite enough.

And as long as you avoid reading our book and engaging with the facts and arguments we present, you should have a wonderful time.

I have a very strict policy of not giving my money to someone I find morally repugnant.

That's very admirable, especially coming from someone who exhibits such a high level of logic, rhetoric, and moral certitude. I'm grateful for your unwillingness to actually address my arguments since it saves me from taking any more time addressing your small-minded screeds.

Cristina A. Montes

Carl and Sandra debunk TDVC after having taken the trouble to read it themselves and after doing thorough research. EPP ridicules the book by Carl and Sandra without even having read it, and claims to know their real motives without explaining how (I don't know; maybe he has access to results of Carl's and Sandra's psychological tests that reveal their motives? Or is EPP a legilimens? (check Harry Potter Book 5 for the definition of "legilimens"). Now, who's more credible?

Romani12_2

Perro patron,

I am sorry that my comment was not understood by you. No need to compare me to a book anbd witch burner. That's just juvenile.

-Romani

Greg Wright

I know I'm coming in way late on this conversation, but I thought I'd just stir in a few facts with the speculation. Carl and Amy might have sent an email or two around asking some questions if they were so darn curious about what was going on. I, for one, would have been more than happy to fill them in, as I've been part of the discussions with Grace Hill from day one.

First, Sr. Rose was asked to participate because she was a known quanitity to Grace Hill -- as are all of the "experts" that the Dialogue (nee Challenge) has mustered. I can guarantee you that there's no "let the Catholics suffer" mentality involved. (The site has also just added another Catholic expert to its roster. Does that leave the panel still wildly unbalanced? Of course. It's put together by Protestants with ties to Fuller. What do you expect? It's no more unbalanced than, say, the Da Vinci Outreach site.)

The Da Vinci Dialogue per se is not promoting the movie. It's not even pro-DVC, which anyone would know if they'd look very close. (Is it kind of lame? Well, yes. And that's unfortunate. But "lame" is not the same thing as "evil" or "poorly motivated.") All of the essays thus far posted are very much in the debunking tradition, and are aimed at education about the real facts of the case.

Charges that we're all "in bed with Sony" on this are just pure hooey. Sony has wisely provided a forum for dissenting opinion a part of their promotional effort, and they're not influencing the content of the thing one bit. It's simply their way of helping reduce the noise level -- of saying, "You wanna complain about what we're doing? Here. Here's a site where all that can be contained. As long as you're not campaigning to ban the movie, do what you want." And naturally, the effort draws a lot of ministers like me who aren't afraid that a novel or a movie (or the gates of hell itself) will prevail against the church.

If any Roman Catholic (or atheist, or Baptist, or neopagan or whatever) would like to be a part of the Dialogue, follow the links from the site over to the forums at Hollywood Jesus. We'd love to have a more balanced discussion -- as long as we can actually talk about the book and movie, and do so without namecalling, browbeating, intellectual bullying, condescension or other forms of uncivil behavior.

See ya there?

Greg Wright
Senior Editor
HollywoodJesus.com

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